Mindful Monday’s

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is more than gender and race, it is about creating workplace cultures that work for everyone. In this Mindful Monday we took a closer look at how leaders can drive diversity through positive role modeling, challenging long standing patterns of behaviour and empowering others to do the same.

Speakers:

• Michelle Precourt, Mindful HR Services Inc.

• Gabby Zuniga, Inclusive Kind

Transcript

Michelle

Hello and welcome. Welcome to Mindful Mondays. My name is Michelle Precourt, and it's a real pleasure to be here with you today. Before we get started with Episode 11, with Gabby, I'll be telling you all about her very shortly. Let's take a moment to recognize where we're beginning our work today. And it fits in really nicely with today's Mindful Monday, diversity, inclusion and equity. And I'd like to recognize that I'm broadcasting live from Sḵwx̱wú7mesh Úxwumixw (Squamish Nation). Here in Squamish, British Columbia. I invite our viewers to share in the chat where you are calling in from and take a moment to recognize that there were people here before us, who were and continue to do, as we are today, which is building community and sharing knowledge and learning and growing from each other. So please do share in the chat where you are calling in from. And I'd also like to tell those folks who may be joining us for the first time, what is this all about? What is Mindful Mondays? In short, Mindful Mondays is about creating conversations around hot HR topics. We've talked about a number of problems, recruiting, for example, was one, career related stress was another. And part of this is just around sharing knowledge and again, learning how, as leaders, we can maybe do things a little bit differently and create long-standing sustainable workplace cultures. So with that, welcome, and hello, Gabby, how are you today?

Gabby 

Hi, Michelle. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. Thank you. It's a sunny day here in Toronto. So it's a it's a good day.

Michelle

Well, I'm so glad to have you here today. And I want to tell our viewers a little bit about you. So Gabby's got all kinds of knowledge before starting her consultancy firm. And I'm going to look at my other screen here because I don't want to miss anything. But before Gabby started doing this, Gabby was the lead for Ernst and Young for the their DEI strategy so I expect you did a lot of amazing work there. Gabby is also an adjunct professor with a Queen's University in Kingston, and her consulting firm Inclusive Kind, she works with organizations to help with structure around DEI. So welcome again Gabby and with that, let's let's just jump into things. Let's talk DEII, what's on your mind today?

Gabby 

Oh, yeah, no, let's jump right in. So you know, I think one thing that's been often on my mind, and this comes from just what our clients are coming to us from and what I speak to others in the space is, you know, this idea that like D, E and I are real buzzwords, right, everyone, you know, is hearing them, it's in social media, it's on LinkedIn. And, you know, people, our clients are reaching out to us and saying, like, how do I get on board with this? What is it that I can do? So, you know, that's been a lot on my mind in terms of like, how do we help clients do this work meaningfully? And for it, you know, not to seem surface level, and for and for it to actually create change within an organization, rather than just be sort of the flavour of the month, which, you know, as you know, Michelle, like there's so many, you know, buzzwords out there, like the great resignation and you know, this working from home and hybrid workplaces and D, E and I sort of sometimes falls into that bucket. So I think a lot about how do we frame this conversation for clients and for folks, so that they know that this is, you know, this is another business priority, and it requires, you know, like other segments of your organization like finance and marketing, it actually requires a plan. It requires goals, it requires data, it requires a plan for it to actually happen, and for it to actually be meaningful for the organization. So, I you know, a lot of folks think If I just do a few little things like maybe put out a statement around, you know, Pride Month, that that will be enough. And that, you know, it's something that you check off. So I think a lot about that in terms of, you know, how do we change the conversation around D, E and I so that there's concrete action. Rather than just, you know, I always say it's like, some clients just throw things up against the wall, a lot of best practices that they hear about, or they read about without it, fitting within their own organizational culture.

Michelle

And I know that you and I talked about this offline earlier that, you know, there's the systemic changes that come with implementing a structure DEI strategy, like policies and process in committees and this sort of thing. But I also think, and like, maybe we can talk about this a little bit, that there's also, you know, the grassroots initiatives where it could be as simple as someone saying, I really like your shoes. And those shoes are non-traditional in the sense of an individual wearing high heels that wouldn't typically wear high heels, just throwing that out as an example. But there could be everyday, sort of grassroots initiatives like that. And so I'd just like to hear your thoughts on that Gabby.

Gabby 

Yeah, you know, I always like to walk people through DEI as a journey. So, diversity, equity, and inclusion is a journey for two, there are two stakeholders. One is at the individual level, each individual is on a journey, learning about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that is what that means to them. Some people have a lived experience, so they experience and go through life. You know, if you're a black woman, for example, you experience life and microaggressions, and certain discrimination all of the time, possibly. And so where you are in your journey is completely different than someone like me who passes as being white. Right? It's always nice for people in organizations to think about, there's the individual journey that people are going through. And then there's the organizational journey. So as organizations want to embark on D, E and I work, then they have to recognize that both of those journeys are happening, the organization is changing, and is trying to change its culture, through its systems through its procedures, the way it does things to be more inclusive, but all those individual people are also on their own journey. So I think it's knowing that there's these two journeys, there's these two stakeholders, is really important for organizations when they're structuring their strategy when they're thinking about this work. You know, right now, I would say, and maybe this is a little bit of a pet peeve of mine is, you know, a lot of organizations are really focused on changing the hearts and minds of every individual. They think that diversity, equity and inclusion work means, you know, training everyone and getting them to, you know, change their behaviour, and that will equal an inclusive organization. And when you take kind of that narrow view of just trying to change individuals, well, you're only going to get so far, because we all know how difficult it is to change people's behaviour. So you're only going to get so far. And you always need to be thinking of that individual and organizational piece. So you know, if a lot of D, E and I work sometimes is grassroots, the organization starts it because people at the organization are asking for this change. And I think that's wonderful. You need to nurture that and take that as far as you can. But organizations can't forget that unless they change the system in which decisions around people are made. So you know, how do we pay people? How do we rate their performance with a D, E and I lens? You don't get a lot of traction, and you might get, you know, a lot of dissatisfaction from those employees. You know, that started that movement or who are really interested in this topic.

Michelle

I just popped up on the screen a comment from Youssef, thanks for chiming in. And if there are other comments or questions we really encourage you to share and tap into Gabby's knowledge. As you can see, she's got a lot to share. So I do want to talk about this pet peeve of yours, is we're trying to trying to change each person along the way. But I do want to talk a little bit more about this. And this idea that around workplace culture and the culture shift, and policies tell us how to behave, right? Being an HR professional, I'm quite accustomed to writing these policies and, and helping with some systemic changes. But what do you do with those comments? You mentioned microaggressions, and so maybe we should first say, like, what is a microaggression? Let's start there. And then I think I have one that I'd like to share. So, you know, microaggressions are, you know, I think that the name is all wrong. Because, you know, micro, we think they're very small, but they are very, can be very painful to the person on the receiving end. But they're small slights that happened in the workplace, by others. So it could be, you know, small things like, you know, you're, you're in a boardroom, you're sitting, and then people, you know, some people may avoid sitting next to you. You know, it could be people don't make eye contact with you. You know, it's those little things that you may notice that sometimes are ambiguous as to just something just negative happened at someone just, you know, undervalue who I was. But they're hard to put your finger on it, it unless you experienced them often. But there's small slights you know, that come from racism and from prejudice and from our stereotypes. So let me let me share one, this was, this is what happened to me a few years ago, when I was consulting when I started my consulting firm. And I was talking to another person in business who was sharing some ideas with me. And he said this. And so I'd like to talk about these things. Because I expect these sorts of things happen to a lot of people. And so what do we do? What do we do when we're in this situation? So here's an example. I'm in a room with a gentleman who was giving me some advice. And he said, Michelle, I'll leave all of this with you to talk to your husband. And so I, I said, thank you. And I laughed, and I didn't say anything. And 100% I count on my husband's support 100%. He's very supportive of Mindful HR Services and the growth of my business. He's not the decision-maker. You heard that right, husband, he's not the decision maker. And so what do we do about things like this? Right? I think back to this time, and I'm like, I should have said something and I didn't and why didn't I? I don't, I don't know, you know, you can't go back. All you can do is move forward. So what's your advice Gabby?

Gabby 

Yeah. So I think it depends. So I think in a workplace context, it's we have to be mindful that folks that are experiencing this, there's a risk to actually bringing this up. Right. So, you know, I would love to be able to tell anyone and everyone that if you ever experience something that you're uncomfortable with, like a microaggression, that you would, you know, be able to say to that person? Oh, you know, I'm interested to know, why do you think I need to speak to my husband about that, you know, about the comment that you made?  As a DEI practitioner, I don't always give people that advice. Because if their workplace has not started on that journey of DEI and has really no awareness about what microaggressions are, that could backfire on the individual who has experienced that microaggression. Right. So I think it's really important to tell folks that experience this, to almost do a risk assessment of your environment, some workplaces, sadly, are not ready to confront some of these issues. And that person, it may cost them a lot. So I think, you know, people have to be mindful of that. And then but I think in you know, I have this example, similar to yours. You know, a little bit ago, me and my husband, were buying some investment, real estate. And I reached out to a realtor who was a man because I knew that he knew that market. And I also, you know, was the main point of contact for the deals that were happening. But he would always say, you know, did you talk to mark your husband about it? Like, it would always go back to like, Oh, I'm giving you this information. And I think he thought I am the organizer, but that Mark was the real decision maker, you know, and in that case, because the I was a client to him, there's less risk, right? Like it because I'm his client. I don't, you know, I'm not working for him. I wasn't expecting, you know, spending all my time there as an employee. So I felt a little bit more comfortable at one point after it had happened numerous times, you know, I worked up the courage to say, like, Why do you keep mentioning Mark, when I'm the one actually, that's going to bring it to Mark if it makes sense, and I'm the one that's going to make the decision. But, you know, it was only when you assess the situation that you can call people on it or question them of why they think what they think otherwise, I think, as HR professionals, sometimes we like to tell people, well, you should have just, you know, confronted it right then or you should have just asked, but I think we need to put ourselves in the issue of the person experiencing it. And if it is someone that has always, you know, or often experiences microaggressions, we need to make sure that we reduce the risk for them. And if an organization is not on the DEI journey, if people don't understand what these things are, then I think that person needs to figure out really think thoughtfully, who is it that I trust within the organization so that I can talk to them? And, and then ask them. Also, you know, to help me in dealing with it, because otherwise, I think there's a lot of risk.

Michelle

Yeah, I think, in this risk that you're talking about, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you if this example, your example, and in my example, was, I'm going to say is Senior VP of an organization that has the ability to influence, you know, career limiting moves, then I think that's the risk that you're talking about, right Gabby?

Gabby 

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like, if you're, you know, it depends on what position the person is in, you know, are they going to, you know, that there's this tendency in organizations that, you know, we go along to get along, right. And a lot of times, the folks that are identified as sometimes being the most hard performing, the people that are tapped as someone that you know, can be a leader into the future, or those that kind of go along a lot with the status quo, or the mainstream culture. So, you know, we can't deny that, right, that happens a lot in organizations, we were drawn to, you know, often all of us, even myself to situations that are easy. So if we encounter an employee that, you know, brings something up that is more sensitive, and, you know, we might just think, Oh, they're, you know, they're so negative, or like, they're looking for little nitpicky things to bring up so yeah, if there is a risk, you know, either from your own co-workers to perceive you as that, and then they start leaving you out. Or if it's someone in a position of, you know, assigning work or, or judging the work that you're doing there is definitely risk. I see this a lot, like, what ends up happening is that these folks that experience microaggression, after microaggression, because, you know, let's be honest, it's usually, you know, a lot of women, and racialized folks, and people with disabilities, or people from the LGBT community that are facing these things, because they fall outside the mainstream, you know, so we want to make sure that we're protecting them with the advice that we give them. But what I've noticed a lot is those folks, at some point, get so fed up with the accumulation of these things happening so often, that they vote through either, you know, when organizations do engagement surveys, they may be the ones that, you know, are voting, you know, are giving the rating that, it's not a great place to work. But I think ultimately, some of these folks ended up leaving the organization. And that's why  ]most organizations do end up losing a lot of their marginalized folks, because they're not attuned to those things happening.

Michelle

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, really good, really good point. And I'm seeing, I want to pause for a moment and make sure that we're capturing anything here in the chat, which is why I was kind of looking over to my other side of screen here. Lots of dialogue in here, and really good comments. So thanks so much for sharing. I also want to try and share I've been trying to share Gabby's website so folks can connect with you after I'm having a little bit of issue troubleshooting here. So I'll put that in the comments after for sure if I can't get it live here while we're in live broadcast mode. Let's talk a little bit about what organizations could do if they're really on a shoestring budget. It's important work 100%. But there's lots of important work. And so what is something, what's a tactic or a strategy that an organization could do that will make a significant difference, but might not come from a high-cost perspective?

Gabby 

Yeah, and, you know, I think this is a little bit tricky as well, like, I think some investment needs to happen, whether it's dollars, or someone thinking about this and being strategic about how do we approach it. You know, I think a great place for organizations, especially smaller organizations that, you know, recognize that this is important that they want to do something about, but don't know what, and their budgets aren't huge to hire consultants or to hire people that can support them, is really to, you know, there's a few metrics you can look at, even if you have a small workforce, you can look at, you know, who works at our organization, right? D, E and I, diversity, equity and inclusion, it's a journey, you can't have inclusion if you don't have diversity. So you can maybe start there. Is figure out who works in our organization? Is it from a demographic perspective, as crude as that sounds?  What is the makeup of, are women in the workplace? What is the makeup of our folks from visible minority perspective? In Canada, we have four protected groups. Start there, there's an abundance of information from the government around, you know, numbers, like what are those groups look like, from a representation perspective? And, and then look internally, like, what do we look like? The goal is to look like the markets in which you're operating. So I think that's one way where you can start. Start the journey in a very thoughtful way, in where it's data-driven, as well. So it's not just oh, we're going, you know, put out a statement in support of Pride Month, it's really about, hey, let's ask our employees, let's do a self-identity census and find out who works here? And are we in line with where we should be, you know, if you're a small organization that doesn't have to cost you a ton of dollars, it will cost you some resources in terms of getting up to speed on you know, how best to ask these questions to use a tool where you know, where you can collect this information. But that's a pretty low-budget way to start understanding who works there. And then once you get that data, and let's say you realize, like, Oh, my goodness, we only have 30% women or 25% women, well, that can be one of your goals, right? Then you're setting your strategy and the things that you're going to do based on these numbers. You know, we don't have a lot of LGBT folks. Well, why is that? Is it because either they're not telling you because they don't trust you, or you just don't have them? So that will again, set up a goal for you, let's dive deeper into the experience of our LGBT employees. So I think that's a really good way for organizations to get into this space, without having to spend a lot of money for larger organizations, that have bigger budgets, that's what they'll often look to us, they'll come to us and say, can you do a survey for us? Can you do a census for us, and we take that completely out of their hands and do it. But for smaller organizations, you know, even organizations using small HRIS platforms, they might be able to also get some of that information, because they may already have it, right. Like they'll have, you know, gender, like they'll have the sex at birth, for benefits reasons, usually, you'll have that you'll have age information as well. So that's a great place to start.

Michelle

So what I hear you saying is leverage the tools that you already have, and then measure and and move forward that way.

Gabby 

Yeah, but measuring is so important, right? Because otherwise, you want to have a baseline of you know, in 2020, this is where we started, we had 30% women, or we had, you know, no one identified as LGBT, and then do that same exercise in a year. And then you'll see okay, are we headed in the right direction? Are we not? Did we invest in you know, might be recruiting from different groups, right? Did we invest in that? So having that data set, and that information will help you plan into the future and actually see if your attempts you know, getting onto this journey or even working?

Michelle

Yeah, what came to mind when you were talking about that was recruiting so if you know that you're low in a certain demographic, you can target those areas. You can also look at community initiatives and do a lot of organizations these days. And it's amazing, I say yes, to keep doing it, the social movements around, volunteering in your community to support your community, but also get to know, get to be known in your community. So there's that piece of it. And then also, with this data that you're collecting, you'll recognize if there is also a gap, not only in the diverse groups of your individual contributors but into managers, senior managers, you can look at succession planning, all of these types of things. So I think there's, there's some things that you can do, that's not going to cost a lot of external money. It'll take time for sure. And as you said, Gabby, it is an investment. But one, one worthy of it.

Gabby 

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a journey, right. And, you know, to your point, like a lot of candidates that are looking for work, or you can learn so much about an organization right now, just by going into their website and going into their LinkedIn, you know, as a HR practitioner, maybe go onto your website, what is it showing for your leadership team if you have a board? Who is who makes up that board, and you can, you know, in relation to gender identity, and also whether they belong to a visible minority group, right, and that can start your journey? Right. Like, there's just a lot of data you already have, that you could start using, and it won't really cost you much.

Michelle 

Yeah, yeah. Gabby, I want to ask you about something. You mentioned this to me before. And I think our viewers will be as excited as I am about this new app that you're developing, Hear U. It's called Hear U. And this is really about a place for people to go, if they don't feel safe sharing with their employer. Do I have that right, Gabby?

Gabby 

That's right. Yeah. So what we found through the consulting work that we do is that as organizations start doing this work, the knowledge around diversity, equity and inclusion increases, and folks that have been traditionally marginalized, you know, they sense that there's a change and that it might be safer to bring up some of these microaggressions, possibly, right, because the culture is starting to change. But what we're finding is that when employees go to HR, or they go to their manager, those folks aren't really equipped with the knowledge yet around how to handle these situations, these really sensitive situations, so oftentimes, and isn't through no fault of their own, like I think people have good intentions. But if you think about HR programs, it's only maybe in the last two years that they include a diversity, equity and inclusion component. These things have really never, you know, this is quite, it's not new work, but it's only now being put into these HR programs. So what we found is, as organizations begin this work, that when they go to their HR departments, often, you know, they get guided and gaslighted. So they're told, Oh, you know, what, you're being too sensitive or this, you know, that's not the case. So what we created was a tool. It's an app that employers buy into, and it's a QR code and employees are able to report anonymously incidences of unfair treatment in the organization. And they could just report anonymously, so they let the employer know, what we do on the backend is aggregate the data and give reports back to the employer, always maintaining confidence. Or if those employees want to talk to us because they want the support, and they and the employer wants to give voice, they're also able to do that. So we have clients already on the tool, the tool launches in July, but if anyone's interested in hearing more about it, please go to hear you. So H E A R u.co  And you can learn more about it. But we're super excited about it. I think it's a tool that is missing in the marketplace right now.

Michelle

Thanks. Thanks so much, Gabby. And again, I would share this in the chat. I can't share anything in the chat. I'm so sorry. I've got to do some troubleshooting afterwards. But HearU.co, I'm really excited. And I'm excited about this, Gabby, because you started this because employers asked you for this right? Yeah, this is amazing. This is amazing that there are organizations and leaders out there who are like, I think there might be some things happening. I don't know. But I'd like to have a third party, assess it and gather that data so that we can make, goes back to what Mindful Mondays is all about creating sustainable workplace cultures, and healthier humans at the same time. So I see that we're coming up to the end of our time here. And I want to thank you so much, Gabby for sharing your knowledge in the comments in here. I've got one here. I'm going to show this on screen here. Thanks, Jennifer, for sharing hereU.co. Thank you all for your comments, and for engaging us in this really important conversation around diversity, inclusion and equity. Our next Mindful Monday is in July. Let me just double-check. Is it July 18th? That's the third Monday. And in July, it's with a couple of leadership development experts. I'm so excited to have this conversation with Jennifer and Matt. Jennifer Dean Consulting and Matt MacEachern from Lidera. And we're going to be talking about leadership in the workplace and how we can create stronger leaders through leadership development and some tools and resources that we might be able to share. So I hope you can all join us for that conversation. Thank you again, to our viewers for chiming in in the chat and sharing from where you're calling from across Canada, and around the world. I saw we've got viewers from the UK, and here in BC, in Ontario. On the island, Victoria, our nation's capital in Ottawa. So thank you so much for chiming in. Third Monday of every month here on LinkedIn. Thank you again, for showing up today Gabby and sharing what you do.

Gabby 

My pleasure. Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle

 And with that, we'll say goodbye. Until next time, everyone, be well.