Mindful Monday’s

In this episode of Mindful Mondays we discussed “Managing Personal Boundaries”. How do we manage boundaries when the lines between work and life are so very blurred? We also looked at how to create a more supportive workplace culture where saying NO is OK.

Speakers:

• Michelle Precourt, Mindful HR Services Inc.

• Brandy Payne, Thriving Workplaces

• Ahmed Rammay, Marketing by Rammay

Transcript

Michelle

Okay, looks like we're live.

Ahmed 

Hello, hello.

Michelle

Hello. Hello.

Brandy 

Good morning.

Michelle

Good morning. I'm going to do a bit of a test here with my advisors to see if in fact we are live. But I do believe we are live. No, we're not?  Live in 30 secs. Yeah, we're live the joys of using technology when you're not a tech person.

Brandy 

Like we've all become our own tech people in a way over the last year and a half.

Ahmed 

Yeah, no, that's for sure. We've all had to become our own IT and troubleshooting and all that at home.

Michelle Precourt 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But so happy that you're both here. Thank you for joining me on a Mindful Monday. This is episode three. The trifecta.

Brandy 

The third time’s the charm, is that what they say?

Michelle

I think so. Yeah. I think so.

Ahmed 

Well, shall we get kicked off, Michelle?

Michelle

Let's do it. Absolutely.

Ahmed 

All right. So Michelle, why don't you get kicked off and give us a bit of an intro on what are Mindful Mondays, as you just said, this is our third one. But tell us a little bit more.

Michelle

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Ahmed. So the idea behind Mindful Mondays is, guess what? I don't have all the answers. So I'm tapping into the expertise of others to talk about career. Sorry to talk about careers. Yes, my background is in HR, but to talk about HR-related topics like careers, like stress, like workplace wellness, and I believe in the wisdom of collective knowledge. So that's why we have Brandy here today.

Ahmed 

Welcome, Brandy.

Brandy 

Thanks. Great to be here.

Ahmed 

That's awesome. So thank you for that wonderful introduction. Michelle, I think now for anyone who's new or hasn't joined us before a good time to do a quick intro So Michelle, Precourt of Mindful HR Services is a corporate mindfulness consultant. She believes your best self is your relaxed self. And I have to say I definitely feel relaxed, whenever I'm talking with Michelle, it is completely stress-free and so easy. Brandy Payne, who's joining us today. She is a workplace mental health consultant. And her tagline is, I help high achieving high performing people and teams dodge burnout and improve mental health so they can stay at the top of their game no matter what happens. And I think that is so poignant, and eloquent right now. And especially in a world like today, to dodge that burnout and improve mental health piece. I love it. Myself, as always, for the third go round. I'm your host. I'm a marketing and brand strategist. However, today, I'm here as your host and moderator, and I'm really excited for the upcoming conversation. My name is Ahmed Rammay. In this episode of Mindful Mondays, we will discuss managing personal boundaries. So I think that one is also super relevant and very important in today's conversation, how do we manage boundaries, when the lines between work and light, are so very blurred? And we see that especially now, you know, we were just talking earlier about becoming our own IT people, because we're doing this from home, in our own place. So how do we manage that? You know, we'll also look at how to create a more supportive workplace culture where saying no, is okay. So let's jump into it. Michelle, we're calling this LinkedIn live, managing personal boundaries. Why is this an important topic for you? Why did you want to have an entire Mindful Monday session centred on this topic?

Michelle

Yeah, it's, um, I think, because I've got some, you know, I recognize as a consultant how difficult it is. So this office here with my Laughing Buddha, behind me is on the third floor of our home. And so that does allow for some separation. Because luckily, we have a space where I don't have to be in the kitchen. I don't have to be, you know, in a room that I sleep in these types of things can cause those blurred lines. So I'm invested, I have a personal interest in managing personal boundaries. And in addition to that, the clients that I work with, also struggle. They struggle with this, we have things like, like these beautiful, amazing, hateful, dreadful devices. It's the love-hate relationship with technology, it can be such a gift and such a curse. I'm curious to the folks who are listening, if you have two phones, do you have a work phone? And do you have a personal phone? I'm going to post this question on LinkedIn later as well. Just about, does that help to put away your work phone? If you have two phones? Or if you only have one phone? What's your techniques for managing, you know,  the draw of wanting to respond to your, to your cell phone, and there's brain science behind this as well. Chemicals in the brain trigger when we respond to something. And so part of it, frankly, is not our fault. It's the brain at work. So I'll pause there because I've said a lot. And I just think that there's no easy one answer to managing personal boundaries. But that's part of it is we are, we are all replaceable at work. All of us are replaceable at work. And it's not that our employers don't love us and don't care for us and don't appreciate all the skill sets that we have. But we are not replaceable at home, right? I know Ahmed, you're a father, you are not replaceable to your daughter, Brandy, you have kids as well. You're not replaceable as a mother or as a spouse. So this is why I also have an interest in this and creating healthier humans and creating healthier workplace cultures through managing personal boundaries.

Ahmed 

Yes, that’s such a salient point, especially when you I think, you really hit the nail on the head, you know, you're saying we are replaceable at work to some degree, but at home, there is nothing that can fill that same spot. So you have to be mindful in order to be ready, and able at home, which is just as important, if not more important. So you know, I love what you put there. Brandy, what are your thoughts on this? Share some of your thoughts around how you're feeling?

Brandy 

Yeah, so y'all might have seen my cat Moe earlier, he's currently sitting right on the desk. So he might pop by again, speaking of work in home. Yeah, so I think like, Michelle really hit the nail on the head with a few pieces there. I mean, our families really do need us and we need ourselves, right? If we're putting all of our energy and our time into our work constantly being interrupted in our our home lives and just like feeling like we're continually on call, but actually has a negative impact on our well-being across our life. It has an impact on how we show up in our workplace. And in our work time. Now, of course, recognizing that for many of us right now, the workplace means like the little corner we've carved out in our home for our working. But it has an impact on our ability to do the work we're trying to do. As well as how we show up for ourselves and for the people in our lives, whether that's you know, our children, if we have them, spouses or partners, if we have our extended family or friends, everybody, it just has such an impact on on the way we're able to process the things in front of us. And it kind of has an impact and in which I was talking about the notifications and how they have been stress impact on us. Well, then what ends up happening is if we're always in a state of chronic stress, and that elevated stress level from dealing with his incoming notifications are feeling like we thought that like time we gotta go rush off to respond to that email and things like that, then we're never resetting our baseline stress level. And that is what puts us at risk for things like burnout. It also has that negative impact on how we show up in our relationships. Because, you know, relationships can get fractured over time if we're constantly showing up in a distracted or aggravated or just not being present. And so really thinking about how we can set some of those boundaries and create that space where we're able to look after ourselves, not just constantly looking after families. And I think for those of us who are especially parents of young kids, it's really easy to forget that we have needs and we need to look after our emotional our physical and our mental well-being as well as our social well-being outside of our families.

Ahmed 

Yeah no, for sure and you know, when you're saying that we're not replaceable to our spouses, or we're not replaceable to other resources around us. Excuse me, get a little bit of a frog in my throat. That is so important to be mindful. And you're right, that little corner, that space that we carved out for ourselves in our homes to work, you know, you, right now I'm working out of our second bedroom. And it feels weird because that's our personal space. But yet now with this new world that's now coming out into, you know, the public side, but also to, you want to create a space that when you aren't going for rest, you're not creating that mental attachment or association with work. And so I don't rest in this room, so it's okay. But if this was my bedroom, then it would be you know, that detachment is very quickly goes away, because then you wake up, and you're seeing that place where you work and what have you need a bit of a break. So having that detachment, I think, is important, too, as a mental health consultant, Brandy in terms of wellness and well being our personal boundaries, and I think this kind of relates to what you were mentioning before, but our personal boundaries being challenged as much as we think, or is this just, you know, something we're all saying, but are we feeling it? Is there truth to this right now?

Brandy 

Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to this. And I think, you know, we're, the phrase that I keep my saying over and again, is, you know, the pandemic has exacerbated a lot of our challenges. But we didn't live in a mental health utopia, pre-pandemic, most of us had challenges with our emails being on our like, you know, I think, you know, Michelle was talking about our phones, I think most of us have our work email on our phone, and we tend to have the devices with us at all times. And so we were always getting those intrusions of emails, notifications, Slack messages, and the like. And that's where I think, you know, as a broader culture, we really want to be putting some thought into how we manage that and when and where we're checking, also how we set our notifications and what some of the expectations within our workplace are. Because the reality is that every time that "bing" happens, or that I, you know, turn away from spending time with my, my kids, or just having like downtime to read a book, and look at the phone and response, start in my head, noticing the work messages and responding to them, then that has that intrusion in my life. And then what it then means is that I'm not really having that rest time from work that I would be if I didn't have that cell phone message if I wasn't checking those emails after hours, and that kind of thing. And that's why I think, you know, as a boundary around just what time we check our phones, what time we get those messages, and then setting up notifications to correspond with that is really important. latest version of the Apple iOS app for phones actually has a way where you can set different levels of notifications, depending on the time of day in what you're doing. They call it focus. And I think it's intended mostly for us to not be interrupted when we're doing focus work. But I think it also really helps for, you know when we're trying to not be interrupted with focus, personal time or focus, family time. And so using some of those tools to help us to carve out that time, that space, as well as those conversations in the workplace of listen team. The rule is that we're going to check emails during the workday if you check and respond to emails outside of business hours. That's cool, because maybe you're flexing your time, right, we also want to be flexible with the hours people work. Because you know, like, for example, today, my kids are home sick today is not going to be a nine-to-five workday for me. And so I'm going to be checking my emails later tonight, once the kiddos are in bed and stuff like that, because I just need to this is the reality of being able to like take some time off to look after him during the day. And so recognizing that we do have some of that intrusion, but also setting up some of those guardrails of like, you know, I've got my out-of-office reply on I'm going to check my emails at this time in that time, but I'm gonna you know, not worry about it. While I'm, you know, cuddled on the couch watching a Barbie movie with the kiddos later.

Ahmed 

You know, I think it's interesting the way you you frame that because we're talking about the work notifications right now, however, with the, you know, the way technology is going now, there's that abundance of notifications. And we could have a whole separate conversation about this. But I think it's still important to know, there's the, you know, if you're using WhatsApp, the group message notifications, there's the social media notifications, there's the you know, personal notifications, for email, and that kind of thing. Funny, we live in a world of memes. Now, not to make that our baseline here. But it was a really funny one and it was talking about school-aged children and the school emails that we get, which is just as much as the emails we get from our work. So but the point is, we have so much out of office, inundation of communications and notification so it's and how do you set personal boundaries around that as well? So I just think it's, you know, it expands beyond now the work notifications that we take home with us and in our emails, and you're right, the new iOS has that technology built in to help encourage us to focus where we can channel those different notifications from and parts of our lives at different times. And Michelle, for yourself, what are you seeing in that space of either notifications or, you know, wellness versus well-being and our personal boundaries being challenged as much as we think they are?

Michelle

I think that they are Ahmed. And this is where you know, when I talk about mindfulness at work, this is about developing something that's going to work for you. So, for example, there are some folks who thrive in and like, they literally do thrive in being engaged at all times of the day. And that's just who they are. And then there's others who flounder. So a quick example is  I've been chatting back and forth with a former colleague of mine. And she made a comment about how there's a number of her HR folks that are going off on sick leave, and how, you know, it's really sad that they're going off on sick leave. And so that's an example where and, you know, I don't know all the background, of course, there's a variety of reasons of why that could be not just, you know, stress and burnout and mental health challenges at work, could be other reasons for that. But this is where, you know, your personal boundaries are so very important. Going back to, we're all replaceable at work. So those folks that are going off on sick leave, the job is going to get done either way. So taking care of yourself, so that you can be your best self. Going back to the quotes that you shared at the beginning Ahmed, you know, your best self is your, your relaxed self is your best self. Part of that is managing your own stress, you're self-regulating and self-managing. And these are the types of conversations that I have with folks, the clients that I work with how mindfulness can help with that. Those are just some initial thoughts that I have, Ahmed.

Ahmed 

Yeah, I love it. I think there are so many different avenues and things, as you said, to think of when we're thinking of those boundaries. And those boundaries are expressed in so many different ways. It's not just a technological boundary, it's that expectation, or that underwritten expectation of availability, or it could be you know, that pressure that we feel in our workspaces of being on all the time when we know, you know, some places will say check your emotions at the door. But that can't always be realistic, either. And so there are boundaries on both ends, you know, two sides of the same coin boundaries, from your home life into work and from work into home life, and so on and so forth. As we delve into this deeper, I think, you know, it would be really important for our viewers to get maybe some tips on managing personal boundaries, and what they might be able to take away from this conversation to help them either manage that with the workplace or with their home. And it could even be you know, when they're meeting with their families and setting boundaries, with family in terms of this is the time that I'm going to be busy for work outside of regular scheduled hours, if you need to be, for example, or you know, for work to set a boundary and say, this is my personal home life boundary. And I need you to respect that. So you know, kind of go either way. But Brandy, let's start with you, what is one thing that you would suggest to someone struggling with personal boundaries?

Brandy 

I think the first thing I would say is that it's okay to have boundaries and that this stuff is hard, right? We're not really taught how to have conversations where we say, This is what I need, can you do that without it feeling like an argument and, you know, I think for some of us, myself included, we tend to think that like, if we say like this is what I need, then the other person's either not going to hear it or that it's going to be a fight. So recognizing that it doesn't have to be a fight. And it's oftentimes if we just approach the conversation, like a problem to be solved, then that can be really helpful. So one of the examples I like to give is, you know, could the I think that the, you know, some of the creating an understanding that expectation for when work messages will be responded to is a really important one. And I think a lot of workplaces like a lot of managers and leaders think that they're not expecting you to reply right away. And so when you tell them that when they receive the message, you think you know that you think they want a response right away, that can then become a conversation and so saying something like listen, I'm doing some reading and it turns out that if I don't take a break, it impacts my productivity at work. Also, I've just been feeling really tired. And like I'm really stretched. And so I think one of the things that would help me would be is if, you know, we agree that I'll respond to work emails within the hours of nine to five every day, I'm also going to look at putting aside some blocked off time in my calendar. So I can check and respond to emails a couple of times a day. And that's going to really help me get some focused work done and you know, get the priorities that we've got on the list on. And so instead of being like, listen, I need to set a boundary with you and like, setting it up like a confrontation, yes, and incorporating it into part of a normal conversation that you might regularly be having. If you're not already having conversations with your manager or leader about the work that you've got on your plate, and how you're juggling all of the things and your super full calendar of meetings that are back to back probably, then I think that's a good place to start. And just having those chats on a regular basis, maybe once a week, where you're saying like, look, this is what I've got on my plate. This is the calendar coming up for this week. And you know, I know we've got an interest in working on this other project, I'm just not sure how to fit it all in with the hours that we thought or you know, and then when you start having those conversations, and talking about, you know, priorities and how you're juggling your workload, as well as the things that you've accomplished, and that are going well, I think that becomes then a really good spot to start slotting in those things like, listen, my kids are having a tough time at school right now. So I really need to be able to focus on family stuff. When I pick them up, I usually pick them up around 530, they're usually in bed by nine. So you know in that window, unless it's urgent, I'm just not going to be able to connect. Another one that I love really quickly is to tell people to call you if it's an emergency, we are so quick to dash off an email or a text message or a message on Slack or whatever it is, if it's text, we do it right away. But when we have to actually pick up the phone and use the telephone app, we tend to actually like set the bar of emergency really high. So if you say like I'm not available to check email or Slack messages during this time, but if it's urgent, give me a call, you will be surprised how few phone calls you get. I have used that technique for years. And I think I've gotten like one phone call over like four years over. So it's like, it's shocking how something so small will make the difference. And you know, thinking of what you're saying what means earlier, my brother shared one with me, which was, you know, after your hundreds of years of using the telephone, we decided we'd rather just send each other really short letters.

Ahmed 

And that's actually a really funny point. Because between texts and emails in that, you know, that's really what it's become. There are, you know, endless memes about not wanting to pick up the phone. And it's so funny that we did get to this point where for whatever reason, we don't want to pick up the phone to you to make the call or take the call, you know, the scam callers aside. But I think what I loved most of all what you said there was setting expectations with those people around you who are relying on you. And I think that's completely fair, even to the point where I worked at a place once where they had an internal SLA of you need to respond to emails within 24 hours. But if we're being realistic, and within 24 business hours, not everyone is ready to respond to every single email within that timeframe. Sometimes you need time to step away, think about it, maybe do some research or talk to other people and get some of those answers. And so, you know, having that min bare minimum expectation, I think is fine. But I think we also need to set expectations with those people around me that sometimes I will need time to step away and think about what you wrote. So I can formulate an appropriate response to you because this isn't just a quick fire, you know, answer your question kind of situation. And I think having those open, candid conversations with people really helps. And it all comes back to communication. You know, I think it was Michelle, who earlier in the call was she mentioned the word human and it's stuck out to me as that at the end of the day, is that we are all humans, we're all people. And we're all going through similar struggles together in the same way. And so if we just communicate with one another, rather than letting either feelings fester or something else, which can then impact that well-being in the workplace and those boundaries, it can really make or break. So I knew at my point to say as long as we're communicating with each other and setting expectations, I think we would move from this in a much more positive path forward. But anyway, Michelle, how about yourself? What about you? What kind of tips would you have for our viewers today?

Michelle

Yeah, I asked myself this question all of the time. And it's it's a coaching question that I'll use. So the question is this at this very moment, do I have a problem? So do I really need to contact Brandy now? When I know her kids are you know she's getting after dinnertime or whatever, whatever it is that my colleague has shared with me at this very moment, do I have a problem? And more often than not, the answer is no. But it goes back to this, this instant gratification where it's like, I need to do this thing. And sometimes that thing is crossing boundaries. A colleague shared this example I noticed in the chat, Ahmed, and I'll address this question about the boundaries of someone who has crossed the colleague that has crossed a personal boundary, and it was this example where the out-of-office message came through and what they did, they saw the out of office and sent a text message, I know you're away, but so the colleague blocked the person didn't respond to the message, they blocked the person. And it was a temporary block, of course, because you know,  you will respond. But it's like, no, I am on vacation. And this is where, you know, I was trying to get a hold of someone last week, and I found her and left a message on her work line, and then called her cell, and then I sent an email. And that's when I got the out of office with like, four different people that I could contact. So it wasn't my intention to bother her on holiday. But she had put in a lot of rigour in terms of if you're dealing with this, contact this person, if you're dealing with that contact that person. So she was doing a really good job of putting her personal boundaries in place saying, I'm out of the office, and her email said, I am not responding to emails. Now, that's fantastic. But is that accepted in the culture of where you work? Sometimes, no. So is it a cultural, a systemic cultural issue, where they're talking about workplace wellness, but not setting, not allowing people to set personal boundaries? Is it cyclical, Q4 is a really, really busy time for business. So sometimes it's just this is the way it is for these three, four months. Once we get through that, we're all going to pause. Sometimes workplaces even have shutdowns. Or it could be you know, even for a shorter period of time, like I came from the labour relations world. And so collective bargaining, it was like, all hands on deck, you need to be available. So there's a variety of factors to consider. The one that I would say is, do what you need to do for yourself. And I 100% agree with you Brandy is have a healthy conversation about what it is that you need. Sometimes we need to be more vulnerable, up the hierarchy can make us feel safer. Because we feel like we need to have this. This availability to our people, our teams. So that could be a strategy as well as who can you call and say, I'm going away for the weekend, I want to be unavailable, can you stand in for me and be available for my team? That sort of thing? So these are the types of conversations that I have regularly with the clients that I work with. And there is no one-size-fits-all, which is why we're having this conversation today. Managing personal boundaries is not easy.

Ahmed 

Yeah, and especially when we talk about workplace culture, and I think a lot of that is changing to even from the simple point of working from home. You know, I'm hearing from many, many of my contacts and colleagues about the prospects of either their company saying yes, we are accepting work from home post pandemic or we are not. And I think a lot of employers are looking to that as is that a potential benefit that people are looking for when they're even recruiting or if they're wanting to maintain retention levels of people and so different items like that I think are creeping up more and more where wellness and mindfulness is becoming so much more important in workplaces in that and rightfully so we need to maintain a mental health check for people were to the point it's normalized moreso or at the same level are regular doctor checkups and that kind of thing. You know, we have sick days that some companies will offer I need them mental health day. And you know, you take it for whatever you need whenever you need and what have you. But to the point where a sick day shouldn't just be in for physically sick days, you know, there's there's this whole mental side of it. Before we jump into check the comments to see if there's any questions that have rolled in. But are there any closing things you'd like to share Brandy, and then I'll pass it over to you as well, Michelle.

Brandy 

just dovetailing with what you were just saying around the, you know, using sick days as mental health days, I think that, you know, there's still a lot of stigma that exists around mental health challenges in the workplace. And a lot of folks are reluctant to talk about it, because they're afraid that it's going to impact how they're seen at work, or how their, what their capacity is seen as and that sort of thing. One of the things we've learned from this pandemic, and even before was that we can have blips in our capacity, if we're dealing with something in our personal life, or even a super challenging time in our professional life. So for example, if you're an accountant, around tax time, your capacity is super low, because you are so stretched with work. Or if you're going through a challenge, like you know, a breakup with your marriage, or a family member who's ill, things like that have a temporary dip in your capacity. And so being able to take sick days, whether it's for a physical illness or a mental illness, I think goes a long way to addressing some of that stigma piece and making it okay, as well as talking about the fact that you can take your sick day as a mental health day. I think that's an important piece. And for folks who are in leadership positions, where they can start to have conversations about how I'm not my best today, I'm a little tired, my kid was up late, I'm tired, or whatever it is, or I'm feeling really stretched with the, you know, workload we have right now, because it's tax time, or it's Q4 or whatever it is, can help normalize some of those pieces so that it's easier for folks to talk about what it is they need. And then when we can set some less respectful boundaries, people can say like, Listen, I need to focus on this priority. So because this is the top thing we need to get done, and let's maybe figure out when the other stuff gets done a little later, once we get through this thing that we really need to get done. And so things like that are you know, some of the advice that I offer to leaders who I work with when you know, addressing how we can, or identifying how we can address and support the mental health of their employees in the workplace, as well as supporting their own mental health. Because much in the same way that you know, we can only be at our best self when we're doing well. The way that you know, our mental health and our well-being are doing impacts the way that we lead the people in our teams, the way we interact with our co-workers, as well as the quantity and the quality of the work that we're able to get done.

Ahmed 

No, I love that. I love what you just said there. Michelle, how about yourself? Any closing comments?

Michelle

Yeah, just you know, notice what it is that you need. And we're all unique human beings with unique needs. So you know, if working on Sunday works for you, great. Don't expect your colleagues to be available, right? Unless they're like you as well. Right. So there's no one easy solution, but figuring out what's going to work for you and what Brandy had said they're being respectful of what your colleagues need. Respecting their boundaries as well is where I'll close with managing personal boundaries.

Ahmed 

Awesome. Before we jump off here, Michelle, do you mind telling us a little bit, I'm excited about this one, the next Mindful Monday that's coming up on November 15, with Dave Redekopp, career-related stress and you know, at this time, there's so much going on and there's so much feeling going on. And I think this is a really important one to hit especially at that time before we'll be closing Q4, as you said, it's a busy time of the year. We're heading into the holidays gearing up for the next year. So anyway, can you tell us a little bit more about that, please?

Michelle

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation with Dave. He is a PhD researcher from the University of Alberta. He's written a publication called Strengthening Mental Health Through Career Development. And I just dove into this publication because of my background in HR in career development, and there's so many different aspects to managing career-related stress. And that's what we're going to talk about with Dave. So that will be on November 15, at 9am Pacific. So I hope you can all join us, those of you who are here with us. Thank you so much, Brandy for your expertise and your thoughts. Thank you to Ahmed for hosting and checking in with our viewers and thank you to our viewers for sharing your comments and your questions, if there was anything that we missed, shoot me a message happy to continue the dialogue on managing personal boundaries. Thanks so much, everyone.

Brandy 

Thank you.

Ahmed 

Thank you. Thanks so much.

Brandy 

Bye, everyone.