Mindful Monday’s

Transcript

Michelle

Hello, and welcome to Mindful Monday’s. My name is Michelle Precourt, and it is such a pleasure to be with all of you here today. I know there's some of you that are just catching up coming into our Mindful Monday LinkedIn Live broadcast. Welcome everyone. Before we get started and before I welcome our guest, I do want to make an important acknowledgement here about where we're all called calling in from, which is an indigenous community. I have the pleasure of working and living and having so much fun, here in British Columbia, I'm I live here in Sḵwx̱wú7mesh Nation, otherwise known as Squamish, British Columbia. And I really do, honor and appreciate those that were here before us, and their stewardship of this amazing, beautiful land that I am here in BC. I invite all of our viewers here to chime in the chat and tell us where you're calling in from. I know in the past, we've had folks from all across Canada, and even internationally. So we're we're crossing over oceans, which is really exciting. I also want to tell you a little bit about Mindful Monday’s. For those of you who might be joining us for the first time, it's all about thought leadership, thought leadership around HR hot topics. Some of our previous conversations have been around mental health in the workplace, career related stress, retention, recruitment issues, all of these really difficult, challenging issues that are in the workplace, in today's world of work. Today, we're here to talk about career development. I'd like to welcome our guest Lotte. Hi, Lotte, how are you today?

Lotte

Great, Michelle, thanks for having me on. I'm happy to be here.

Michelle

Of course, I'm so happy that you're here as well. So let me tell you about Lotte. Lotte is an experienced business leader, she's had significant experience in senior leader HR roles and career strategy. And she's the founder of Long Lasting Solutions, HR consulting and coaching. She's been in business since 2008. So I watch closely because she's been in business for a whole lot longer than me. She works with clients who have what she calls an "employer of choice" mindset, whether that's for HR, career transition, or leadership development. So welcome once again, Lotte.

Lotte

Thank-you.

Michelle

I want to just check in here with what's happening in LinkedIn Live here in the chat. So we've got a bunch of folks calling in and I just want to do a quick shout out to those folks. We some regulars. Hi, Barb from Winnipeg, a couple of other Winnipeg callers and Greg Loghrin from The Loghrin Group. Hi, Greg! Hope you're doing well today. Professor, Dr. Funke, welcome. Hi, Lianne. So many folks. I'm so happy that you're all here today. Please do share in the chat, any questions you might have. Give us a thumbs up or even a thumbs down, if you disagree with something we're saying. Hey, this is all about learning and growing from each other. So let's jump into things. Today we're talking about career development. And I threw this question out to Lotte "What does succession planning, professional development, employee engagement and retaining top talent all have in common? We came up with the same conclusion, and that's career development. So let's dive into this. Part of the work that I do at Mindful HR Services is to figure out what's going on in the world of work, what's happening in business. I went on a bit of a research project around career development. I spoke with a variety of industries in a variety of sectors on what career development is, and there's some interesting comments out there, some interesting findings. So I want to share that but, I'd like to hear from you first Lotte, what does career development mean to you and those that you serve?

Lotte

That's a great question, Michelle, because I've had the fortunate career path of working in independent practice from a career strategy perspective and also from a corporate perspective. So when I'm working with individual clients, career development is all around your career as an individual. And that's the way it's described from a career professional perspective. From an HR perspective, it is about talent development, talent retention, it is about, you know, development within an organization. So I think, you know, from an external perspective, when we're on our own, we have 100%, personal accountability for that career development, and what we do with our career path. When we're in an organization, we want support from our employer, and we expect that our employer will help us get to the next step or support us and moving forward and from an employer's perspective, depending on the industry, it's actually a really important aspect of what they do for talent retention.

Michelle

Thank you for that Lotte. I see we're talking about both sides of the world here. And I think that's really important, because some of the findings when I've been having these conversations is in line with what you said. So career development, and the thought around career development is that it's employee owned, it's individually owned but if I go to my employer and say, Hey, I'm curious about this program, or, or I want your job, right, this is where sometimes employers can get really caught off guard. I don't know what to do with that? But it helps to facilitate the conversation. And curious people are those who want to not only develop themselves, but then guess what, they've got something to contribute to the organization.

Lotte

Definitely

Michelle

I just see it as win-win. I want to just bring up a document here, because this research that I did I want to share a little bit more about this. So I think in short, we're talking about the same things, but maybe in a different way. I've already talked about this idea that career development is employee owned and driven by the employee, but that they are really looking for support. And then there's this idea of talent management, which is maybe what more leaders are thinking about, or more leaders are using this type of language. Talent development, retaining top talent, talent, leadership, this sort of thing. This is how organizations will engage with these individuals on their career path. So if they say I want your job, okay, well, guess what, I'm going be here for a while. But what else can we do? What else would satiate you in terms of your career desire? So that's a little bit about my findings. I don't know if you have any, anything else to chime in there with Lotte?

Lotte

I agree with you, Michelle. And I think, you know, from a corporate perspective, it would be talent development, rather than career development. It depends on the corporate culture. And every organization it will mean different things to different organizations. If your organization is such that you have a talent shortage, you're going to focus on the next steps, even if it is the manager's job that they want, and the next steps, organizations shouldn't stop people from, you know, progressing your career to that level. And I think it's also really, you know, if you decide you're in an industry where you've got talent shortage now and you're really struggling, it's really about that holistic employment relationship at the talent development piece to your point, it's, what people want. They want to be engaged. They want to be happy. They want to do work that is meaningful. So whatever that looks like, if you can't go up the ladder and give them that, can you give them something across? You know, from an enrichment perspective.

Michelle

For sure, right, so things like temporary assignments, or if you're in a multi-location around Canada, maybe you can send them off to other organizations. I see my colleague, Greg is online, I know that he was talking with an organization that their entire HR team was all focused on recruitment period. Drop everything else and focus on recruitment. That's a learning opportunity and maybe some of those folks weren't interested in recruitment, or they're like, I don't know what to do with this, but it's still a learning and development opportunity. Recruitment right now is so difficult. Everyone is recruiting so I can understand why some employers are doing that. I also encourage our followers in the chat here. What are you seeing in terms of career development? Or are you seeing different language used? The other ones that come to mind are executive leadership, or leadership development would be another one versus talent management or career development. But I'd love to hear from our viewers. What sort of language are you using in your organization? Maybe even what's working, what's not working. And we might be able to help troubleshoot you here stay while we have a Lotte with us.

Lotte

Michelle, the other thing I just wanted to add is that, I think it's really important that employers ask their employees what they want, because sometimes what we think they want is not what they want. One of the organizations I work with right now, we ask people regularly, and it's not necessarily a jump to another job, it's learning a new skill. It is just working on a different project. So sometimes it's not significant in our eyes, but it's very significant in that because the other thing we have to keep in mind is that people are at different spaces in their life. Sometimes they're ready to go up, sometimes they're not ready, because they got lots going on. But just keeping their brains engaged and learning in their hearts is important. And they know best sometimes.

Michelle

Lotte, what about those folks who aren't satisfied with that? They are really looking for that next promotion?

Lotte

Yeah, I think you know, what, again, I'm going to say it's from an organizational perspective, and what an organization has, and what an organization is willing to do. And so there are some times I've been in organizations where people are pushing, and there just is nothing else. And so sometimes there's just a very candid conversation with, we've done the best we can do, you're a valued employee, if this isn't the right thing for you, then we understand that. I think sometimes being honest with people is is far more important than having a disengaged employee, or having somebody if they're not happy, or they choose to leave, then maybe they'll give you a bit more notice that you can cover for them. But it's just being very intuitive with that, depending on your organization and the people you have there.

Michelle

Let's take a look at a question from John Espley, here. Thanks for your question, John. So John asks "although asking what they want, I think is good. I've seen where requests or desires can be a challenge or something the employer just can't provide". Yeah. So I've seen it work both ways. John, I've seen it where part of the career development conversation is, what do you want to do with your career? And it's like, nothing, I'm happy where I am. I don't want to do anything else. And I remember this really specific example. This was a real example where an employee came to me and said, I gotta have my career conversation. And he asks me the same question every single time. I don't want to do anything else. I'm happy doing what I'm doing. This guy was a little bit gruff, a little rough around the edges. But he was being really honest, and really transparent. And he honestly thought it was a complete waste of his time. And so I think that where I went with him was, go with it, go with the conversation, because the flip side is that he doesn't ask you, and you don't have these conversations. And what if, what if there's a point when you're ready to do something different? So you know, it's not always a win-win situation. Sometimes there is that imbalance. And then from the other side of the coin, I think it really depends, is the promotion really the driving force?  Sometimes we really, really want something and then we get there and we're like, oh, this isn't what I want it at all. Or then the employer actually can't provide that. So you don't want to lose them but you can't boot somebody out of a job just because you want to promote Lotte, right. So I don't know if you have anything else to contribute to this question that John shared, it's a really good one.

Lotte

Yeah, I do. It's a great question, John. Michelle, I just wanted to respond to yours as well, where the person that I don't want to, it's the same thing every year. I think there's a couple of things there. HR forces this stuff. But I have found over the years that what I call performance management, it's old school, right. And it's just a conversation. I really think it should be called performance development. I think leaders have to be trained in how to have good conversations. I think that's critical to because if the manager doesn't have the interest, it's going to fall flat for the manager, it'll fall flat for the employee. I've had employees who shouldn't be talking about their performance reviews. But they do. And it's exactly the same. The manager has given the exact same review. So that shouldn’t be happening. So I think, to your first point managers have to be trained. To John's point, I think there absolutely, there are things employers aren't willing to do or can't do. And I think that clarifying expectations up front, helping people understand that the scope of what is available, from a learning perspective, from a budget perspective. I think that forethought has to go into it so that when a manager has the conversation, they're not stuck, right? I think managers have to be armed with the information that the company is willing to provide. So if organizations have, for example, educational assistance policies, the policies would spell out what is available, you know, do you have to have good attendance? Do you have to have good performance?  Is there a maximum of $500 a year? Does it have to be something that can be transferred to your job? So I think those types of things are really important, you know, when you're having those types of conversations, so that managers don't get stuck in saying, you know, if employees shoot for the sky, and the manager says, just can't do that, or employers, you know, say I can't do that they need to be armed upfront with how those conversations will go.

Michelle

Yeah, and I think what you were alluding to there without saying the words Lotte was succession planning, so the mapping of the leaders within the organizations or those that might be up and coming, right, and then having a succession plan in place where, you know, where the employee that John's talking about here, they just can't fulfill those desires. It's like, you know, we have a plan, but that plan is going to take five years. And so maybe, maybe it'll happen before that, but at the moment, it's looking like it's a five-year plan. And here's what we can do during those five years. Sometimes people leave. And, you know, I also think that that's not necessarily a bad thing, either. I know those employers out there going, oh, we don't want anybody else to leave, and you are. But if you're not meeting their needs, and they're not meeting your needs, likely there's going to be an imbalance, and likely they're not going to be as productive and engaged anyways. So there's always different signs. This is the thing about career development, professional development, talent management, leadership development, call it whatever you want, there is no black and white. There's so much gray in this.

Lotte

I think, Michelle, you know, part of what this is, sometimes if people leave, they come back as a boomerang. So that's a term that I've had in my career that there just isn't the right capacity for a person right now. If your leadership is really good, if your culture is really good, and they're leaving purely for career related aspects, you know, they can be the first people you call when an opening comes through, and then they may consider coming back. Boomerang employees are typically very grateful to be back, even if even if they've applied for a job and come back, but they're, they're your best advocates.

Michelle

That's awesome. Boomerang employees. That's a good way. So let’s talk a little bit about this. The Boomerang people that leave, the people that stay let's talk about employee retention and in your opinion, Lotte how does career development support employee retention? And maybe you've got a success story to share with us?

Lotte

Yeah, you know, that's a great question. Because I think it's part of that bigger, I'm a total rewards person. So I think it's part of it that a piece of everything right, but when you're looking at the total rewards offering from a holistic perspective, I think right now, it is very much switching to "compensation isn't king anymore", it is what is the employee experience? Am I going to like working with you? Am I going to learn am I going to grow? People are asking those questions more and more often. I always go back to this one situation, you know that it's a few years, many years ago now. But I when I was driving to work when I was in corporate and I would get a car wash on the way to the office and there was a guy who was always happy and jovial and he scrubbed my car before it went through the car wash and one day I saw him in the office, and he came to work with us as an IT co-op.  He was an immigrant to Canada. So this was his first co-op experience, he ended up shortly being a manager within the organization because we had this connection, because we said hello every morning when I had a car wash, and he was part of the client group that I had. He was very curious about, I want to grow with the organization, what opportunities are there. So he took every opportunity from external career from our educational assistants to internal learning to, you know, cross departmental opportunities. So, I think that, to me, is a real success story, because he came in and he saw every opportunity, he knew what he wanted from a career development perspective for himself. He also tapped into all the resources that the organization had. And he took, you know, the performance development conversations very seriously. He was very forward with what he wanted. So we were able to accomplish that. And I just think that's a great, to me, that's one of my favorite examples, just because he just had a mindset of what he wanted his career to look like, as he came to Canada, and he made it happen.

Michelle

Yeah, I want to also share this, this really simple statement, but it's really great. So thanks for sharing this.

Lotte

Absolutely

Michelle

I'd like to share a quick story around retention. So I was working with an individual I worked with this organization for a few months and then the manager came to me and said, Michelle this particular employee would like to talk to you about some career challenges that she's having. Are you interested in having career conversation? So I said, sure. What we went through was a bit of a values exercise, and I kept on asking her these questions like, What's the worst thing that could happen if you asked your employer for this? Or for that? It had to do with working styles. And she's like, I don't know, why don't I ask? And this was over a number of months and a number of conversations, she asked her employer for a certain thing that had to, again had to do with working style, what was going to be helpful for her to stay on track and be productive. And ultimately, the employer couldn't fulfill her needs. And the working relationship ended. And at first, she was shocked and surprised. Then it was kind of like this weight lifted off of her shoulders, because she's like, "Oh, I didn't realize how important this was for me in my work". Now, now I can go somewhere and find it. I'll ask for it. So people may look at this situation and go, Oh, they you know, they lost talent. Certainly they did. But they also likely got somebody else in who fit their working style a little bit better. And then she's off doing new things. So I see it as win-win for both situations. Job loss, the end of a working relationship, it's hard, 100%. I know Lotte, you do some work in career transition, supporting those folks who their livelihood is gone, their routine is gone, their working colleagues are gone. All of that grief is really hard. And then there's also the folks who are left to pick up the pieces. That's also really hard. And I know that you do this type of work. But then it's about moving on, right.  So I just wanted to share that because it's not always a bad thing, if individuals walk away because there's a values or a working style misalignment.

Lotte

100%. I totally agree with that. Michelle, and it's often in career transition conversations, that people get the a-ha moments. And then they say, Oh, I didn't fit there. You know, and then they are very much empowered to find something better.

Michelle

For sure, for sure. I'm just taking a look at the time here Lotte and I want to be mindful of that. I'd like to ask you one final question here around leaders who don't know where to start. So if a leader came to you and said, I know we need to do more work around career development and supporting the the individuals who work for my team, what would you say to them?

Lotte

You know, that's a great question because everybody's need is different. I think it's really important that before you decide what you think you need, that you talk to an expert who can help you out. Then also talk to your employees. You know, you really have to understand what your business needs for some businesses are very transactional. So career development or retention doesn't mean a lot to them. Some people, some organizations have to retain their talent for their businesses to operate through meeting something very crucial to them. So I think talking to an expert about what the options are, but also talking to your team about what they want. And then from a leadership perspective, understand what you're willing to do, right? Whether it's financial, non financial, because all of that has, you know, a place in our conversation. And know that it's not always just about that type of, you know, what the promotion is, because it's very much that holistic picture, right. My clients, organizations, we have people that they just love what they do, and they don't want to be promoted. And that's very normal, that's 80% of your staff, right? They just love what they do. And you need those people to keep stability in your organization. So it's not as if you're looking at everybody. So that's why it's more than the career development piece. It's really understanding what makes people happy when they come to work, what makes them want to come to work, and it starts with the, you know, leaders being able to have honest conversations.

Michelle

I think there's a couple of things that you were talking about here, in terms of those 80% of individuals who are happy doing what they're doing, it doesn't mean that they don't want development, right?

Lotte

Totally. Yeah.

Michelle

This is where many organizations have learning and development teams, and they've got corporate programs, whether it's customer service, or some sort of leadership training or difficult conversations, conflict in the workplace, some of these courses that are available to all employees, regardless of the level within the organization. And then there's the okay, there's some, some succession planning that's happening. And we recognize that we want to promote Lotte, but she needs some support in X, Y, and Z. So a bit of gap training, gap knowledge training, it could be coaching, it could be something really tactical, like Excel training, you know, Excel for non-financial managers. I could probably use some of that training! But there's a variety of ways of developing folks. And then I also think that we haven't talked about this yet, but the data, right, what does your engagement survey say? Take a look at that. What do the conversations look like, even if you're starting from, the words that you use before, old school performance management conversations, even if you're starting from that perspective, is there a common theme? It's also super helpful if you can leverage some technology and extract that online analysis and this sort of thing versus a paper-based process. But there's the data, I think the data is really important, so that you're not investing in areas where it's not needed.

Lotte

Right, and I think Michelle, I'm just a big proponent of really strong job descriptions. And I say that all the time, because job descriptions are the foundation of everything. They're the foundation of what you expect from a performance perspective. They're the foundation of recruitment, they're the foundation of compensation. So having a good job description, to your point helps them understand what training may somebody need, training, you know, if they need it.  That's a great place to start, really understanding what the jobs are within your organization and documenting.

Michelle

Starting with foundational HR work, right? It's really, that foundational. Job descriptions aren't new, right? There's so much you can tie to that. What are those competencies? What's the skills?  And then it's bigger than that. How many of this particular job do you need to produce the widgets or whatever it is that you're doing?

Lotte

Yeah, for sure.

Michelle

This has been such a great conversation. To our viewers I have shared Lotte's information in the chat. I'm sure she'd be happy to connect with you if you'd like to learn more. I also a bit of a promo here. I'm trying to increase my newsletter followers; I'd love for you to sign up and stay connected. It's also where I tell people about the next Mindful Monday, in every newsletter, it's only once a month, so I'm not spamming. Don't worry about that. I don't like those spam companies out there. But the other thing that I'll close with is just about that, the next Mindful Monday's. And one of the things that we talked about today was conflict management. This idea of adding that to one of your corporate career development courses around having difficult conversations at work. And so I want to share with you, I'm just taking a look at my screen here about our next Mindful Monday. So this is on September the 19th. And the topic of this conversation is called "Professionalism in the Midst of Workplace Conflict". Conflict is something that folks are really uncomfortable with. And so in this next episode of Mindful Monday’s, we'll discuss what professionalism means in the face of conflict. I'm speaking with a conflict expert. Oh my gosh, she has so much experience. Her name is Julia Menard. She's a published author of "Hold on to Yourself Stay Cool in Hot Conversation". She also has a podcast called "On Conflict", and she's the co-founder of the" On Conflict Leadership Institution". So that is September the 19th. I really hope that you can join us. I'll be sharing that on LinkedIn in the next couple of weeks here. I want to say thank you so much to all of our viewers. John, for your comments. Carlos, thanks for showing up. Lianne, Barb Farah, Tom, thanks so much. I know that there's more of you. And finally, a big thank you so much Lotte for being with us today.

Lotte

Great to be here. Great to share.

Michelle

I wish you a good rest of your day. Enjoy the heat in Ontario.

Lotte

Yeah, thanks again.

Michelle

And until next time, everyone. Be well.