Mindful Monday’s

Transcript

Michelle

Hello, and welcome to Mindful Monday's. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today. My name is Michelle Precourt, and this is episode 17 of Mindful Monday's as we come to a close to 2022. It’s hard to believe. Before I introduce Mark here who's with us today, I'd like to tell you a little bit more about Mindful Monday's and what it's all about. Really, this is about collective wisdom, sharing of knowledge, information about HR hot topics, pain points for employers, pain points for employees. We've had some really great discussions here on Mindful Monday's. We've talked about corporate culture, career related stress, mental health at work. You know, this for me, it's a bit of a passion project. It's really about creating healthier humans, and more sustainable workplace cultures. So this feeds in really nicely to our conversation today with our guest, Mark. Hello, Mark, how are you today?

Mark

I'm good. Thanks, for sure. Lovely to be with you.

Michelle

Thanks for joining us. So, Mark, I'd like to tell you a little bit about Mark. So he's calling in from the UK today but originally, he comes from South Africa. He runs an organization called Connectivity Consulting and what he does is really, it's about enabling already high performing teams to do even more. And part of that is through the transformation of behaviors. And, you know, I love this Mark, because the work that I do in mindfulness is also transforming behavior. So I'm really looking forward to this discussion. Thanks so much for joining us.

Mark

Looking forward to it.

Michelle

Let me just check in here on the chat and see what is happening. Here we are. So I'd love to hear from our viewers, I always love to hear from our viewers, where are you calling in from? I would love to hear from you. I was a bit remiss in that I would like to note that I'm calling in from the territories of the Squamish people. And I really do appreciate their stewardship of this land, this beautiful country that we live in and it's otherwise known as Squamish, British Columbia here on the west coast of Canada. Please, I'd love to hear from where you're calling in from, whether that's the indigenous community or the city and province or maybe the state, the country. We we've crossed borders here on Mindful Monday’s and I'm really, really pleased about that. So let me just check here. Okay, no comments yet, but we love to hear from our viewers. So please chime in. Any questions for myself? Any questions for Mark, would love to hear those so that we can, you know, be of service in the most meaningful way. So we're here to talk about vulnerability. But Mark, I'd like to take a step back, what does vulnerability and I'll even, maybe narrow this down a little bit, vulnerability in the workplace, what does this really mean, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Mark

So you, you make me think, and I was just looking at my screen, because I got a couple of quotes, or some academic references that have helped me in the past. And so, if you start there, just give it some reference, that might be useful. So the one that people maybe your viewers may know is Brené Brown, and she, she's defined “This vulnerability is the emotion that we experienced in terms of risk and certainty and emotional explosion”. And that's from one of her books in 2016. There's a more academic one by Robinson from 2017, which is not too dissimilar. But it's manifest in the willingness to be honest and open to learning, some of the points that you've raised already, by accepting our own fallibility, and this taking responsibility for one's own actions, being more responsive to others and sharing responsibility. So those sort of guide me. I haven't been able to find many other sort of definitions. So what does it mean to me? I use that as a bit of a guide point in a reference. But it's, it's more of a process. So what it means to me, it's a bit of a process in terms of awareness, understanding how I'm showing up, how I'm choosing to be in the moment, how I'm choosing to connect with people. What is the space I'm looking to create between, say, for example, you and me, I may have a view on something, you may have a view on something. And as we come into that we may enter into a little bit of disagreement. And so do I, do I hold that space with you and seek and feel a little uncomfortable with the conflict, and try to seek clarity and maintain the connection? Or do I feel uncomfortable with that maybe pull back a little bit. So thinking of those references that we just heard, and, and some of the points of embrace, it sort of starts falling into that space, for me definitely got an emotional component to it. For me, and I tend to feel it, I tend to feel it most when I'm with a client, and I've got to be brave, and there's a lovely English expression, you’ve got put your big girl pants on. And so that happens when I when I start having to flag something like something where I've got to introduce, what are you guys not talking about? And that can be quite powerful sometimes, and I have to hold that for myself. So notice my process, hold myself in that space, you know, push myself a little bit and step into that discomfort and, and make myself a little bit a little bit vulnerable. So I take a risk, it gets uncertain, there is a little bit of emotional exposure, because I don't know how people are going to react to me. So it's sort of all of those, in a way sort of playing together. And so it's a process of just trying to become aware and acknowledge what's going on sometimes.

Michelle

Yes, that point that you made about, that checking in, right, so that, am I holding back for the purposes of, you know, maybe not wanting to react in a certain way? Or am I holding back because I’m concerned with being vulnerable with maybe countering that opinion. And so I think that's something for us as leaders to really consider that. You know, when we're talking about vulnerability, it can look many different ways. Some folks may think it's, you know, the person on the team who is highly expressive all of the time, and going, Oh, here we go. Again, this is Mark, you know, on his soapbox, and he's, you know, an oversharer. And, and there are folks like that for sure. And I'm not saying that that's good or bad. It's just the way it is. But it's I think it's more than that, this idea of being able to really use your voice in a meaningful way so that people can react and respond, right. If you don't, if you're not vulnerable. It's a little bit like the iceberg analogy, right? There's only this up top and everything else that's underneath. We don't know what's going on, if you don't say anything. So I think there's some of that going on. I'm not sure if that resonates with you, Mark?

Mark

Absolutely. If I bring back into the picture, and enjoy discussion, that the idea that vulnerability is part of a process, then it's it starts to become a little less packaged a little a little bit like a box with a bow on it tends to become a little bit more fluid. And then we can bend and we can shift with it. What you were describing the way is also, in one way, not the only way and one way it talks to invulnerability because sometimes people will show up and talk a lot. And they may be feeling vulnerable. So the way they look after themselves as they as they become invulnerable. And there's just a lot of noise in opinion. I mean, with respect, maybe not noise, but a lot of opinion and thoughts and perspectives, versus maybe slowing down recognizing that there's a moment of there's a really important question to answer or a more difficult, challenging question. Coming into that. So what I noticed, what I look for as a team coach, when I'm working with teams is I'm looking for the balance. And so I'm looking for what I call the shadow, I'm looking for what's working, and also what's not working. So if I see too much, too many opinions, too many perspectives, too many position taking that's an indication in itself of invulnerability, which, to me is equally important to look at, to see the vulnerability. So when that shows up, so I use that as a reference point. So there's this balance that plays out in this flow that happens with a team. And sometimes teams will look after and individuals will look after themselves in a certain way. And overshare or talk too much as and that can show up in many different ways. It will be very quiet and withdraw and will only come in at certain times. Again, it can't it's not necessarily one thing. So I'm very, very conscious of not judging it or making an assumption. It's watching carefully and just noticing where it's ebbing and flowing where it's where it's pulling back where it's coming in and trying to get a sense of what that might be about. So yeah, there's this lovely balance that plays out and happiness for the individual. It happens for the individual as they bring themselves into the team. And then that happens for the team as well. So there's three sort of pieces. But it's constantly moving sort of feast of interaction with individual with themselves feeling vulnerable and invulnerable, coming in, teams being vulnerable and invulnerable. And that sort of plays and impacts the team's performance. So your point earlier about how does this help HR?  How does this help leaders? Is the time saving for one, addressing the issue for another, getting the difficult issues on the table isn't always the leaders responsibility? The leader is certainly an enabler. Absolutely. But it's also for the individual not to be overly dependent, but to come in. And so when HR leaders or leaders watch this for their teams, they’re certainly activators but sometimes just pulling back might be enough vulnerability for them to not take control. Yeah, to not feel the space and just to pull back gently let go of some of that controlling space, and to see what emerges, can be hugely powerful for them. Both vulnerability and invulnerability playing out.

Michelle

I really like what you said Mark about this isn't just the leader’s responsibility. There's a few comments in the chat, I want to get to those right away. But let's just role-play this a little bit. I'd like to role-play this a little bit if you don't mind, Mark, because sometimes the words that are coming out of the mouth are an indication of something else going on. So I could say something like, Mark, I can't take anything else on like, you've got to be kidding me! This is four days before I'm going on vacation. Like no, I'm not doing it. So I'm not taking anything else on. But if those types of words come out, and I suspect that they do, that people are really vocal about something that's upsetting them. Is that vulnerability, or is that something else?

Mark

Again, there's, there's probably many ways of looking at this. But if someone's showing up with some energy, and is saying I just can't do any more, I started to get a little bit curious. And I would encourage leaders to get a little curious just to at least explore that rather than coming in hard to try and match that energy. And to you know, the old, the old approach might be to shut that down completely. Whereas when somebody's showing up in that space, a little bit of compassion, a little bit of empathy, but at the same time, if you know the person, just knowing where their boundaries are. And so you can then start to explore them. And even with just a little bit of time, I might com to you and say I'm hearing you're going on holiday, and it sounds like you've got a whole lot on, and you don't have the capacity to take any more on. So let's help me understand what's going on. And so I can enter into a conversation where I offer my, my help and offer my sort of compassion and empathy for you, not sympathy, and just start to connect and build that connection because I start to get curious, and I want to know what's going on little bit. That doesn't mean I have to take it all on. But at least just want to unpack a little bit. And so I might say, with a with a little, little introduction to some vulnerability. Michelle, I can relate to how you might be feeling, I'm not in your shoes, but I can certainly appreciate what it's like to have an exceptional amount of work. And I'm feeling the same as you. And I'm feeling overloaded as well. So let's figure out how we can work this out together. Because I might be able to take some stuff off you and you can take come stuff off me when you come back. Maybe you can help me out.

Michelle

Yeah, yeah.

Mark

Little gestures, little.

Michelle

I also appreciate what you said there about not taking it on. Right. What you said was helped me understand what's going on. Right? Not okay, you know what, let's take a look at your project plan. What can I take on? Right? It wasn't about that. And maybe it is that right? Maybe and every conversation is so different. This is where as leaders, I think what you're getting at Mark is to, to assess the situation and then you know, take some steps from there, but how might we be able to help? So you also mentioned this, what I call positive leader role modeling, what you said was, you know, I was up here pretty, you know, fierce and you didn't come up and meet me here. What you did was okay, let's take a step back. And if this is a peer to peer thing, versus some sort of supervisory position, the other thing that comes to mind is something like, take a breath and you want to go grab a coffee? Or let's just not talk about work for a minute. Maybe it's in a virtual environment and say something like, you're going on holidays, I didn't know that. Tell me more about it. You know, it could be something like that. So, thanks for playing along with.

Mark

Hollywood beckons.

Michelle

I want to say hi to some of the folks here. So we've got a couple of people calling in from Ottawa. So hello, Greg Loghrin. He's with the Loghrin Group. If you haven't met Greg yet, be sure to connect with him on LinkedIn here. Also, Diane, Hi Diane, it's been a while she's also calling in from Ottawa. David, it's been a long time. David Dottie is here joining us from Salt Lake City. Utah is such a beautiful state. Elizabeth our regular, always happy to so happy to see you here. And finally, Deepika, thanks for sharing some information about Mark here. I just want to put this up on screen. So you can find him through connectivity.co.uk. You can also find him here on LinkedIn. I'm going to hide this one here. And I'm just going to see what David is sharing here. So David, I like what Mark just said about little steps towards connection. And that is one of the best things to do is to be curious, as Ted Lasso says, Be curious, not judgmental. Oh, that's so amazing. Thanks so much, David for sharing that.

Mark

Yeah, thanks David.

Michelle

Okay, so let's take a look at some, we kind of dove right in here, so I want to take a look at our questions that we had discussed previously. So what about this idea of invulnerability? Is this, you know, when people are holding back? In your opinion, what's the impact of that?

Mark

So let's look at it in a couple of in a couple of areas as that plays out. So invulnerable environment, invulnerability, you think I get that, right. And I think from an individual perspective, my personal journey within vulnerability has been, I've learned to protect myself or I learned to protect myself in a certain way, I learned to look after myself in a certain way. And so I kept a distance. So learned over many years, and then an organization and organizational life that would play out. So whereas I thought I was connecting with people, I probably wasn't connecting as deeply or as openly, in the way that I thought it was. So if I then took play that I can to team, people maybe didn't feel that they knew me as well. And so that can, I'm not saying it always does, but it can lead to some assumption sometimes. And if I was feeling invulnerable, maybe my language was a little clipped, a little short. And my own personal approach is I tend to focus on the tip of the iceberg rather than the whole iceberg. So talk to me really quickly. And that can get misinterpreted sometimes as being missing the point or it's black and white, when actually there's a whole other stuff underneath. But I'm not necessarily talking to that. And because I'm trying to read the room, etc., but the whole time I'm holding myself back so it can play out, where leaders will find this playing out is they may find themselves, so that plays out to me in a team with a leader, it might be that they start to carry the load, because I'll take responsibility for some stuff, but I may not necessarily go the extra mile because I'm concerned that if I do, people may view me in a certain way or judge me. And so I'll just play it safe. Now there's a lot more grey to this and it may come across a bit black and white, but there is certainly a bit of grayness. So for a leader, they may end up having to motivate the meeting and energize it and keep it going and right who's next and pull the agenda together. So the accountability starts to shift on to the leader. And, and so what can happen is people sit quietly, give the bare minimum, and the meeting just takes off with the leader driving it. And now that I've exaggerated that a little bit, but I have seen that play out with teams on quite a frequent basis, where the lead is driving everything trying to keep motivated and focus, getting it going, getting people through and people are just disengaged cameras off not participating, etc. And that can at times, not always but can come from a variety of feelings related to vulnerability. There may be stuff personally going home that's impacting and maybe stuff playing out in their personal lives. And they may be feeling something about work and so they show up in a certain way but invulnerability is, in a very practical way I've seen it cost businesses, first of all time and time is money. I've seen leaders get burnt and stressed out, burnt out and stressed out, because they're carrying too much, and trying to bring individuals in is possibly a way forward. I'm not sure I'm describing this the best way. But invulnerability can play out in many ways, corporate speak, wearing a mask, you don't necessarily see that person real person sharp. And so there's this distance, and there's this, we believe we've got to behave in a certain way, to speak in a certain way. And so I call it head talk, versus actually showing up with a balance between head and heart. And that's again, something I look for is it too “corporatey”, and at times, that's appropriate. But other times maybe when there's been a conflict, bringing a little bit of heart sometimes can help balance things and just ease things down and just reduce a little bit. So again, it's that flow in that balance and looking for where that is. But there are times when teams will exist just in invulnerability, because that's what they've learned. And that's what they're comfortable. So the cost is time it cost it can play money, it can play in money, accountability ownership, then Lencioni’s triangle, is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team is one that comes to mind, which is a great example, or a great sort of model to think of where invulnerability may play out. So one of the key things is low trust. And so if you have low trust, then that plays up all the way through, because you're not necessarily having the right conversation. So therefore, you're not necessarily buying into them. And so therefore, you're not really, you're not really got skin in the game. So that's a great model for both having a look at when vulnerability can really play up on the team. And it's also quite personal at times as well. I don't know if that answers the question but there is quite a bit in that.

Michelle

Yeah, absolutely. You hit a few key points for me. I love The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. That's the book that you referenced by Patrick Lencioni and 100%, if there's a lack of trust there, that whether I'm vulnerable or not vulnerable, it's not going to bode well, then, you know, simply, there's no trust, right. So that is, that's a great a great model to consider. And for anyone that's listening today, I highly recommend this book. I've had it on my bookshelf for a really long time. And I just read it this year, actually, a couple of months ago, and it's really great. You talked about burnout. And I also think that if you're holding things in and not expressing you know, I'm not suggesting that the way we just roll played a few minutes ago and me being bullied is necessarily appropriate from a business code of conduct perspective but the absence of that and expressing where you're feeling overwhelmed or not trusting is, I think, a good example of invulnerability.

Mark

There are a couple other points. I mean, I have a list of my mind, sometimes on lists, but some of the behaviors I'm looking for when it comes to vulnerabilities. Some of the things that show up for me that I'm keeping an eye open, and I'm just looking over here, because I've got them on a slide that I shared with the client recently, very little actual listening sometimes. We mentioned curiosity that, that David brought in with that Ted Lasso said, “Be curious, not judgmental”, invulnerability, possibly in there.  Very interpersonal sharing, speaking in third person, we versus I. So the ownership and the assumption sits up in the team rather than I think, that this is important, because we might think, or we don't think this is important, it's the eye that sort of starts to shift things. Tumbleweed moments, this amazing thing. Not amazing, but somebody will say something. And then you might need to do something completely different. And so I'm left with very little acknowledgement. So the silence thing we do to each other. So it talks to possibly invulnerability, lots of corporate speak, leader dependent, quite solution focused. Now what I mean by that is, when you see vulnerability really starting to play, people become willing to put ideas in a broad sense, are really willing to take a risk with ideas good or bad, just to put them out there. But what I see instead of what it is, is a see rapid-fire solution. So here's the problem. Here's what we get, and sometimes that is appropriate, let's be careful. But when you are throwing a whole range of things at an at an issue without diagnosing it and really listening to each other exploring and getting really curious about what that actually is, and just doing the tip of the iceberg. There's time, this cost, there's tons of resource that gets put into place, impacts motivation, engagement, all sorts of stuff as that starts to play out down the down the line, so to speak. So the other thing that you mentioned, and we were talking about is that takes a huge amount of effort. And we don't necessarily always realize it, so invulnerability can lead to exhaustion. And I've seen it with certain clients where they are, they're doing so many things, rather than three or four, because they haven't really listened. They haven't really got curious, haven't really checked in and play back what they've heard, asked more questions. But as they start to do that, they start to realize they may have missed the real issue. And so they get more curious and they dive in. And they start to unpack a little bit. But yeah, there's a whole range of things that can cause this high level of personal exhaustion, time poor, and work life balance starting to play out. And again, it's one aspect. It's not the only there's many others. But I think invulnerability this learned invulnerability, can certainly play out in many ways, and impact our personal health and well being.

Michelle

I really appreciate what you're saying. And to our viewers out here, you can see that Mark has some really good experience in this sharing some client information, some clients, I guess this is part of your, your materials that you share with your clients. So I appreciate that. What also comes to mind for me is something that you said about the tumbleweed example where I actually had this example come up with me this tumble we were I was in a meeting like this, it was a zoom call. And the organizer of this meeting was looking for some ideas, we were doing a bit of a SWOT analysis, and I had shared some opportunities. And while some of the other comments that were shared, were recognized right away, mine wasn't. And so from a vulnerability perspective, I was thinking, Well, you know, hmm, am I just being ignored here? Or, you know, I was just like, I'm going bring this up. So I took an additional step of vulnerability there, because I shared what I thought was a really good opportunity for moving forward. But I was hearing nothing back. So then I came in and this was all through chat. So then I came on mic and I said, by the way, I shared something in the chat, it hasn't been addressed. Maybe you're suggesting it's a terrible idea? Or maybe you just haven't come to it yet. And they said, no, no, Michelle, we're just we're just getting caught up here. That could have gone a few different ways, right? I was making a bit of an assumption, which is where vulnerability doesn't feel good if you're being vulnerable and it's not being addressed. So I was getting silence on the other end about this idea and then I thought, you know what, I trust these people enough that I can be quite forward and say, maybe this is a terrible idea. But this is what I'm bringing to the table, so that we're able to talk about it.

Mark

Absolutely. And you introduce a lovely concept there which is giving people the benefit of the doubt. So whilst there was silence, invulnerability, while vulnerability might lead us to do certain things, withdraw, and not ask and then carry something away from that, particularly if it's repeated a few times, that happens, and then we might attach some judgment to it versus what you spoke to there was possibly giving benefit of the doubt and going I know these guys, let me lean in and just ask this question. When I work with clients and for any team coach, not just me, trusting yourself to lean in and check in on the processes. What is the silence about is hugely powerful. And so for, for HR leaders and leaders out there, when you notice that lean in a little bit, those first few steps I mentioned before that first of all the steps of connection, checking because what might be happening is a little bit what Brené talks about is shaming a little bit, not necessarily intentionally, a lack of acknowledgement, and so people don't get heard. And so the quickest way to start helping a team move into vulnerability is to start acknowledging what people said. And you'll know you've hit it on the head because people start to smile. And they might give you a little bit information if you've missed one or two points. But if you've nailed it, when you've heard them say something and you play it back, they will go yep, no, that's it that spot on. And now you've got a connection. Now you've got understanding, now trust has been established. But the point that you raised there was lovely because you came back in and if there's one thing I would encourage when people are feeling invulnerability, a great technique is no matter how difficult it may feel, is just trying to come back in and reconnect and seek clarity about what it is, because there may well be something going on. And so it reduces assumption. It reduces judgment. And it brings in clarity, which is so essential for teams to avoid wasting time and effort and resource on something that may have been missed, misunderstood. And then put in as a solution or an idea to go or a solution to go run with versus an idea. So it can play out. It's a beautiful story you just told in terms of coming back in. Not hard to do, but it will, it can feel difficult to do. But maybe that is the lesson of vulnerability. It is a vital teacher. The process is an incredible teacher because as you step into it, it brings you so many so much more insight and awareness. I feel this way when I do that. I did feel that way. Oh, it wasn't so bad. And maybe I misjudged that. Maybe I had an assumption. And that may play out over time. So the next time you come in, you'll go Oh, actually, that didn't feel too bad. Let me ask that question again. Guys. Did you hear me? Yeah. And, and so it starts to shift and move. And then the next level comes, becomes, you become aware of that as your awareness increases. So both are equally powerful teachers, once you start to move into vulnerability.

Michelle

Thanks, thanks for sharing that Mark. Some of the tangible takeaways that I'm hearing from you is to you know, circle back, come back to it in a way that is meaningful for you, right. So another way that I could have in that example was after I emailed or called the organizer and said, you know, I had this idea, I just wanted to circle back to you and get your thoughts, right. So there's different ways you could certainly do it in a public forum, if you feel that you're going to be supported in that. Yes and if not, there's other ways of doing that.

Mark

Many other ways to ask the question, many other ways to bring yourself in, that you're comfortable with my overall point would be find a way to just bring yourself back in gently into the process because something's moving, something's working. And so the vulnerabilities, how do I bring myself into this? And if you try and jump on the moving train, that sort of platform, you're likely to bounce off, you know, but if you run next to it and find a way to grab, hold, and then jump onto the onto the foot stand and then then go in. It's a little different. It's a strange analogy, I know but it's more on the energy and how you bring yourself into it and how you feel and find something that's right for you but find a way to gently bring yourself back into it. It's those little steps of connection as little steps of vulnerability. It doesn't have to be a big bang. Tada, here I am, you know, in me and everything. Sometimes it's you know, guys, would you mind, if it goes quiet, what you can do is just go, can you repeat the last point because I didn’t quite catch that, until you bring yourself in and reconnect them. That can also be a little bit of vulnerability sometimes.

Michelle

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know. We could talk for hours on this. And I'm noticing the time. Yeah, respectful of yours. You’re into your evening. Now. Thank you so much, Mark, for joining us today here on Mindful Mondays.

Mark

Time has flown. I'm happy to go on for a little longer if anyone would like, I don't have to jump off immediately. But I'll take your steer on that, Michelle, but I have no problem really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for having me.

Michelle

Yeah, of course, if there's any final questions for Mark, while you have him here. Please throw those into the chat. While we're waiting for those. I would like to thank our viewers here for showing up. Every month, we typically meet the third Monday of the month, however, today, first Monday of the month, and that's purely for me and my self-serving purposes because I'm going on vacation. My husband and I will be heading south to Costa Rica for a few weeks and in terms of vulnerability, it's been a busy, busy few months. So thankful for the amazing clients that I have an opportunity to work with. But it also means that I've been working really hard and fast these days. So I need a break and so I'll be offline for a few weeks. However, the next Mindful Monday, our first Mindful Monday of 2023 will be on January 16. I am so excited to have this gentleman joining us today. You may know him as Gurdeep Pandher has inspired us. certainly inspired me with his message of hope, joy and positivity. Such an amazing gentleman. He's performed all across the country. He did a summer tour in 2022. He's performed on Parliament Hill, on different TV shows across the country and I had the pleasure of meeting Gurdeep in Whistler, British Columbia. I absolutely love his message and so I asked him if he would join us for Mindful Monday to share his traditional Punjabi folk dance, it's called Bhangra. It brings people together. You just can't not smile when you see Gurdeep perform. We're going have a conversation about how his work creates happier, healthier communities and that is on January 16. I want to just check in with the chat here. So there's someone here who's really excited. Oh, wow, Gurdeep. I followed him for years and seen him in Whistler. He's so good. So good. So that's going to be the 16th of January. Quick note of thanks to Deepika for sharing all of the links here today, Diana, David, Greg, I know that there's others here who haven't shared in the chat. Namita, thank you so much for joining us. And, Mark, I really wish you a Happy Christmas and happy holiday season.

Mark

Thank you very much, Michelle. And everyone who's joined really appreciate your listening. Hopefully, you took something from it. I don't consider myself an expert in any way shape or form. I've just learned from others and on my own journey. And so hopefully people took something from that and I'm always happy to connect on LinkedIn and just want to thank you as well in front of your guests. I'm really grateful and humbled to have been asked. So thank you, it's very kind of you and I really enjoyed the conversation. So wishing everyone in Canada, a wonderful day and I'm going to go and have a glass of wine.

Michelle

Nice. You go enjoy that and you can also follow Mark on Instagram as well if you want to find them there. So thank you again until next time, be well everyone.