Mindful Monday’s

In this Mindful Monday we discussed how to build confidence and a growth mindset for our personal development and a positive career trajectory.

Speakers:

• Michelle Precourt, Mindful HR Services Inc.

• Dr. Roberta Borgen, Life Strategies Ltd.

• Ahmed Rammay, Marketing by Rammay

Transcript

Michelle

Hello and welcome to Mindful Mondays. My name is Michelle Precourt. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. I am broadcasting live from Squamish Nation very pleased to be here on their these wonderful, beautiful Indigenous territories. This is also known as Squamish, British Columbia. If our viewers here know which traditional lands you are on, we welcome you to share them in the chat. Welcome, and good morning, Roberta.

Roberta

It's really great to be here and I'm on Musqueam territory right out near UBC in Vancouver.

Michelle

Nice to see you today. Hello, Ahmed.

Ahmed

Hello, good morning, everyone. Good morning to our viewers today. How's everyone doing?

Michelle

Wonderful and Happy Valentine's Day.

Ahmed

Yes, it is the day of love. Love your career. Love your growth. I think it's a nice tie-in for today.

Michelle

Yes, yes, yes. So before we get into today's conversation about growth, mindset and careers, just a quick talk about what Mindful Mondays is all about. So this is episode seven. So yes, that means we've been around the block seven times here. And the intention with Mindful Mondays is that we're talking about HR related topics that every business, every HR professional, every hiring manager is curious about. So far, we've talked about subjects like career stress, super, super hard these days with everything going on. So career stress is one. A big passion of mine is workplace wellness strategies. We've also talked about mental health and wellness in the workplace. And today, it's all about careers. So with that, I'll pass it over to you, Ahmed.

Ahmed

Thank you so much, Michelle, excited to be here. As always, as you said, this isn't our first time at the rodeo. We've been around this block a few times with our seventh episode. So it's exciting to be back here again with you. Thank you for having me. I'm going to do a quick introduction for Michelle though and Roberta for those that may not know who they are. So let's start with Roberta our guest. Dr. Roberta Borgen is president of Life Strategies Limited and an adjunct professor at UBC, currently serving as a counselling psychology instructor and director of the psychological services and counselling training center. She is an award-winning career development thought leader in Canada and internationally with four decades of experience within the career development sector. And it's a pleasure to have you with us here today. So thank you so much for joining us, Roberta.

Roberta

It's great to be here.

Ahmed

Of course, we have Michelle Precourt of Mindful HR Services. And she is an HR consultant and the founder of Mindful HR Services, as well as our Mindful Monday show that we have going. And last but not least, myself and Ahmed Rammay. I am a marketing and brand strategist. However, today, I'm here as your host, and moderator for Mindful HR services and excited for our upcoming conversation. Our topic today, as Michelle said, is growth mindset and career development. So in this Mindful Monday, we're discussing how to build confidence and growth mindset for our personal development and a positive career trajectory. So let's jump into some of those questions. Michelle, I'm going to pick on you first today, having a growth mindset is a term that is thrown around a lot these days. Can you explain what growth mindset is in the context of an individual's professional career?

Michelle

Yeah, absolutely. So part of what we're talking about when we're talking about growth and career is this idea that not everyone can recognize their strengths. Not so it kind of goes back to this idea of humility, right? We all have a preference for individuals who portray a more humble approach. Confidence is really, really important though. But anytime the ego stands out, sometimes it's just a bit too much. Right? So in many cases, it's this idea of humility that sometimes can get in the way of seeing our strengths and sharing our strengths. So when we can focus on those areas this this idea of growth, will more than likely come, because you're going to be focusing on things that, that you love, the the areas of your career that you love, and the rest is just going to come naturally. So that's my, you know, 30-second take on growth mindset and careers.

Ahmed

I love it. Robert, obviously, you've done a lot of work in this space, do you have something you'd like to add there in terms of, you know, what that might mean as a term that's been thrown around, or perhaps what it means for you in the context of an individual's professional career?

Roberta

Sure, I just actually was reading a newsletter from one of my colleagues, Dr. Avraham, Khan, and he was talking about the growth mindset and, and opposing it to the fixed mindset where, you know, we've got this push-pull within us that we want, you know, especially in COVID, right now, to return to normal we want, we want something solid, we want something we can hold on to. And yet, there's also this, this inner cry for growth and for change, and for, you know, doing better, and I just loved the title of obvious little blog article, that the impossible will take a little longer. And he was he was citing his dad, saying, you know, I had no idea, the words of wisdom that my dad had given me, and Avraham, it himself is now in his eighth decade to, you know, quote his own words. So he's thinking back aways to his dad's advice, but I think that not everyone is primed to grow their career even needs to grow their career, they might be growing other areas of their life. But I still think that notion of a growth mindset is important, because it's looking forward and knowing that things can be, you know, better that we can be more fulfilled that that our career can fit into the other roles in our life in a more positive way.

Ahmed

I love that. And I think your point, you really hit the nail on the head there, especially when you said growth can come in many different ways. That's not necessarily just in career, it can be personal life, it can be in so many ways, as long as we're looking forward. And I think that's the key there. And growth can you are right, can mean different things to many people in different ways for a variety of reasons. And it's going to be different for everyone. But it's that looking forward piece, that whatever that might mean for you, is how you tackle it, or at least how you begin to tackle it. You know, it kind of leads me to think that it's fair to say that we have all needed to pivot multiple times in these last say, 18 to 24 months Roberta. How is anticipated career development been impacted by the current climate do you think?

Roberta

Well, it's it's really fun. Funny, I guess that you've used the word anticipated, because so much of what we've been doing lately, has been unanticipated. And Dr. Nancy Schlossberg talks about a transition model that has four S's in it supports itself and situation and, and, you know, the strategies that we've used before. But one of the things she talks about are anticipated changes and unanticipated changes. And then she also mentions non-events. And I think that within the past year and a half, two years, we've had all three, where we've had some things that we anticipated, but we've had a lot of things that we had anticipated, that we haven't been able to do. And those would be the non-event. So I've had students that haven't been able to graduate on time, we've had people who had weddings planned, and, you know, either didn't go forward with their weddings or had weddings with just immediate family there. We've had, you know, sadly, funerals that people couldn't attend. We've had people who had planned to travel. And they haven't been able to do that, just before we went live, we were talking about conferences that we've been, you know, speaking out, and for both Michelle and I, that was a big part of our life and business. And now we do Zoom meetings. And so I think that as people have developed their careers, the last couple of years have been really interesting, because some have had opportunities that they would never have expected. They've been able to connect with people all over the world by Zoom. They've become known they've had time to do the writing that they wanted to do. They've been able to work from home and maybe find a better way of organizing their lives. Some people have moved to new cities, or you know, they could have a more affordable home, because they've been able to work remotely. So there have been some really positive things linked to career development in the last few years, as well as some really negative things. whole industries have shut down. People have been locked away from their workplaces. My husband wasn't allowed to go into his office for most of the first year. And so there's there's been that balance where you know, the the image that I use when I'm speaking is an image of a boat in a storm and it's says we're all in the same storm. So COVID is around the world right now. But we're not missing boats. And I think that for managers and leaders that we're talking to today, even recognizing the folks that you have working from home, they're not working from the same homes. I've done business meetings with people who are in their closets. I've done business meetings with people who are on their basement stairs in an unfinished basement or sitting out on their patio, in the rain or in a car, because there was no private place in their home to do work. So I think that that's what we've learned, like the word pivot is so overused now. But that's what we've learned that the more flexible people, the more resilient people, the folks with sufficient resources behind them, not just individual, but organizational resources, have been equipped to navigate this storm, it's like they're in a better boat. And there have been a lot of people that have had to continue to work under really adverse conditions that didn't have the resources and supports and resilience to move forward. And they're getting sick, they're burning out, in some extreme cases are dying. The suicide rates have gone skyrocketed, and, you know, certain sectors. And so I think that, that as HR people, we just need to be really aware of how this has impacted people so differently.

Ahmed

Yeah, I think, you know, what you were saying there around pivot, and the resourcing that we have behind us is so crucial, because you're right, every boat, you know, as we say, is equipped differently, will have different resources behind them, or at least available to them. And how we, as individuals, take that on, will be felt differently throughout the world throughout, even just even within our own organization, depending on what kind of leaders we have around us and who's mentoring or influencing. So I think, you know, all those resources coupled together really help with that. But it'll be different for everyone. And everyone's going to experience this differently. And when they think of their career growth, it's, there is that part to it about what you take on yourself, only you can change your world, but also to how enabled you are to do that. So I think, you know, you raise an interesting point there with the whole notion of pivot and resources you have around you, Michelle, I feel like you have something you want to jump in.

Michelle

Well, you know, me well, my friend, because I wrote down that, that quote that you'd said, I don't know, if it's considered a quote, The Impossible will take a little bit longer. And what comes to mind is, I've got an intern right now. And she's fantastic. Her name is Doreen, she's helping me with some of my finance work, she's completing her MBA in finance, and her whole Canadian experience has been during the pandemic. And so she hasn't had the opportunity to or very little, it's kind of been okay, we're in the classroom, we're not in the classroom or in the classroom, we're not in the classroom. So I think about somebody like that, who, it's a whole new culture, there's all new lingo, the language that that we use, versus what she's from Ghana, is just all different, the cultural nuances, all of that. And so, when I think about someone's growth like that her career growth, the impossible will take a little bit longer, it's just going to take her potentially longer, maybe not, she's really Swift, it may just take her a little bit longer, because her access is different. I think that's the biggest thing is the access is different.

Roberta

I absolutely. And I think that Dierdre Pickerell and I developed something called the current engagement model, and we look at aligning challenge and capacity. And so when I think about the example that you just gave Michelle, there's someone where some of the normal resources and capacity to grow are absent right now. Like we're not even mingling with our neighbours, we're not having conversations lingering, you know, in the grocery store, like we might have had in the past, we've been primed to isolate and as that changes, and doors open up, it's just natural that people are going to go back to the people that were they're really good friends and acquaintances and colleagues at work that they haven't had a chance to hang out with for a while. And so that's going to even further marginalize newcomers. And so we're looking at, you know, challenges in work-related challenges. We're looking for, you know, motivating and meaningful work and opportunities. And so given people, you know, work that's going to be engaging, that's going to be exciting, but that has to be aligned with sufficient capacity. And so capacity we know comes in many, many forms, its resources, its supports, it's the people. And so with someone like your intern, I'm really glad she's with you. And I think mentoring is going to be really important. And coaching is going to be really important, and taking folks right alongside you and intentionally introducing them to other people. And so I'm speaking to all the leaders in organizations and managers and supervisors, like be intentional about how you can create some, some meaningful and motivating opportunities for those who are working with you, because it's gonna be super easy for us to be distracted by just getting back to our own, you know, normal interactions and having lunches with people that we're so anxious to catch up with. So bring someone else along for those lunches.

Ahmed

Absolutely. I was gonna say, Michelle, you know, me, I'm a lover of puns and witty marketing fodder, because that's my background. And you know, when you're making mentioned that, quote of impossible, and how that can relate to access or to, you know, different people's we'll say vulnerabilities around their own career growth, or what they may be able to do. Adidas sent me an email this morning, and the subject line was around their campaign for empowerment. But the headline was, I'm possible. So it was the take on impossible, but it's flipped it around and made it I am possible. And I love that because, you know, it resonated in so many different ways. But what you just said it sort of, you know, I felt like it, you've been in your career growth that puts you in the driver's seat. And that's how I kind of heard it as you were talking about it, because it's putting the onus back on you. And, you know, despite like your intern, what limitations they may or may not have, it's again, putting the eye back in there and taking ownership of that, so that you can make it possible. Anyways, just a little thing that popped in my head as you're talking. So I love that. While I have you, Michelle, I'm going to jump to you for the next question here in the career transition work you do, and I know you do so much of it. How do you know client confidence is an issue? And how do you support a client to see their strengths?

Michelle

Hmm. Yeah, for some folks, they can they sometimes do a really good job of hiding it. But a lot of times folks are coming to me because they, they they're feeling stuck in a way. And so it does take some time to build trust, not everyone is an open book, I completely understand that I understand the hesitation opening up. But sometimes the words that all here are things like, I'm not sure. Or, you know, maybe I'm not ready, or, you know, I wonder if and so some, usually what I do in those in those situations is take the coach approach and just say, So tell me more about that. And help them to kind of see in their own way where they might be holding themselves back. I know, for me, personally, I am 100%, my own worst enemy. We just had this conversation beforehand about you know, going live and speaking and how, how much energy it takes. And I am always nervous when I do those these things. And so I am my own worst enemy. Because I'm in I'm thinking about all the things that could go wrong versus the things that could go right. And, and, and at the end of the day, these conversations are always always positive. I love that we're sharing, you know, good information for folks. But I can get caught up in the what if it goes wrong part of it. And this is what I see sometimes with folks with confidence issues is, what if I leave my job? And it's not greener on the other side? What if I ask for something and it doesn't work out? What if I flex and it goes off the rails? Right? This is all about growing. If you don't try, you're not going to know. Right? So. And the other part of this is that confidence is generally really deep rooted. So we're not going to have a conversation once and confidence is going to turn on just like that. There's an end there's multiple avenues that someone needs to take it might be could be hiring a coach, it could be reading a book, it could be going to some sort of group mentorship, some sort of training program, multiple approaches. And it's not definitely not a one and done. And the last thing that I'll talk about in terms of confidence is a quick client story that depending on which side of the fence you look at, someone could look at this story as going, Oh, that's really terrible. But it wasn't, it was enlightening. So I was working with someone who I had said to her, you know, what is it that you want from your employer? And what would happen if you asked for it. So she took some time to think about what she was looking for she and she went ahead and asked her employer for that. And the employer said, thank you very much, we can't give that to you, we don't have capacity to give you what you need. And that ended the employment engagement that ended her her employment. And so, of course, she's like, Oh, I just lost my job, or oh, this is like, terrible. But at the end of the day, she recognized that what she needed to thrive, what she needed to build her own confidence in the workplace, they didn't have capacity to support her in that they didn't, they didn't have the tools, resources. And they just, they couldn't do it. So they parted ways. She's so much more happier now where she is because she's in a place where she's feeling supported, where she's has the access to the tools and resources that she needs. And she's growing. So, you know, some of these conversations can be really difficult, life-changing. But at the end of the day, it's a win-win for everyone.

Ahmed

I love that story. Because it's so real. And even though as you said, you acknowledge that it might be a head turner story in the beginning, but it was that moment of enlightenment. And that, you know, we're talking about growth. And there are those things that will push people to be able to sometimes we knew that push in a certain direction, and it might be a catalyst, and this was catalyst for that individual. And they were able to turn it around, it seems and go on to growing in a different direction or in a different way. But I think that's that side of HR stories that we don't always hear. And it's so real and necessary to hear that there are going to be scary moments. But there's opportunity and that too. And so it's that friendly reminder there. Before I jumped to the next question, I just want to remind everyone that's viewing today, you can add questions and comments in the chat function. So you know, just a friendly reminder that before we close off with our final question, if you do have questions for Roberta and Michelle, we'll have time for a few at the end here. So please feel free to add those in there. Roberta, this question is for you, I'm going to put you on the hot seat. What advice do you have for leaders who are trying to create environments where every member of their team can give their best at work?

Roberta

I just was thinking back to the story that Michelle just shared. And as a leader, if I was listening to that story, I think what a loss to the organization. You know, because a manager or a supervisor in the moment said, Hey, you're asking for too much. And so you're you know, you're out of here, I recognize that we can't keep every employee and we can't meet every employee's needs. And so I'm a real fan of gracious exits, like from both sides, let's help an exit go well, and maybe the person will be able to come back with some new skills at some point in the future and rejoin the organization. And I've had that happen personally. So I acknowledge that. But I think if we also look at that story, from the other side, from from the leaders perspective, as the owner of an organization that employs a lot of people, if I found out that one of my supervisors that said no, without consulting with me, or without thinking about the possibilities or without, you know, wondering what if all of the things that Michelle had talked about, then I would say, oh, my gosh, what a loss and recruitment and retention are such a big deal these days, and career development matters, helping people grow their careers and develop their careers matters. And so one of the techniques that you might want to consider is skip level career conversations. So the immediate supervisor, the immediate manager, may not be highly motivated to have the individual working for them grow out of their immediate job, right, I don't want to lose the people that are supporting me. However, the more senior person in the organization might have more of a bird's eye view of the needs of the organization and might see some growth opportunities and might see the value of this individual for staying in the organization. So consider that skip level, the supervisor, supervisor as a managers manager actually engaging in career conversations. I think as well, going back to our career engagement model, aligning challenge, and capacity is really important if someone is overly challenged, and I'm sure we've all got some in our, our workforces, they're overwhelmed. And if they're too overwhelmed for too long, they're going to become disengaged. However, if someone is under-challenged, they've got the capacity, and we're not using it. And we often see this with professional newcomers. We see this with recent university grads, people who come to us with a lot of potential, but we've got them, you know, doing more routine things. They're going to feel underutilized. And you know what, when they're under-utilized long enough, they're also going to get disengaged, so disengaged, or disengaged, when we've got someone sitting in front of us that's not engaged, they look the same. But how they got there is really, really important for you, leaders and managers to determine. And so we've developed a model, a coaching model called Let's chat, and chat. It's an acronym for communicate, help, appreciate and take action. And I think that can we use it far beyond career development, but it can apply in career development as well talk about it, talk about what your your goals are, your needs are from both sides. Because the key to the chop model is that both people come prepared to talk about all of these four areas, come prepared to offer help. What help, like what do you have inside use it that your manager doesn't know about that? They've never thought to ask? And as a manager, or supervisor, what help do you need? How can you reach out and give growth opportunities in small ways to the people working for you show appreciation, when we first introduced the model, it was to a bunch of scientists and they wanted to change the A to analyze. But appreciation is so important. And so many people feel under appreciated, and then finally work together collaboratively to take action. And that's good for for any tasks in the workplace. But it's certainly going to be helpful for career development as well.

Ahmed

I love it. And it's so meaningful. Because you know, when we think of chat, its most simplest form, ever, you're having an issue, it is so important critical to just chat and chat it out, talk it out, communicate, work with one another learn from one another. And then the deeper meaning behind what that acronym, you know, when you drill down into it as an action plan. I love it. I added it to the comment section here. So for anyone who who didn't catch it, and I hope I got it right, I had communicate, help, appreciate and take action. You know, if I if I miss bungled that one. Michelle, do you have anything that you'd like to add into that? Before we close off today's session?

Michelle

Yeah, every HR professional that's listening, take note of that chat, that chat acronym, I think it's, it's, it's fantastic. It, it makes me reflect back to when I was working in a corporate environment. And you know, I just I just said, you know, I'm looking for some different things. So there's this two-way street, right, you have to open up the conversation. Sometimes the employee will say, hey, manager, I'm looking for a change, I'm looking for something different, but sometimes not. And so it's important that as leaders, we also engage in those conversations. And so what happened to me a few years ago, is I just got these little small secondments where I was, you know, helping an executive plan for a women's leadership conference. I went to Ottawa over the course of a summer this was when I was still living in Winnipeg went to Ottawa over the course of the summer, to help with some staffing needs there. And so this just gave me a different per view of what that environment was like Ottawa is very different than Winnipeg, for sure, in many, many ways. At that time, I was so pleased to be working in our nation's capital, I was such a proud, proud person at that time to to have that experience, and then also to help the headquarters. But I raised my hand and I asked for these things. And then the other part of it is, we haven't talked talked on this. We don't have a lot of time to really get into it today. But what's important, like intrinsically, I think about values, right? So what's important from my personal values that definitely trickles into the professional working world. And if I'm feeling connected to those values, I'm going to want to do even more, right And, again, this is going to help with that engagement, you can use that word Roberta engaged employees are productive employees. So I think that's also an important exercise to do with teams is understanding values, because that's going to trigger all kinds of other aspects of team cohesion already spoke about productivity, tenure, you're talking about retention, that's a huge one. And just an overall, you know, wellness perspective, if we feel that we're valued at work, we're, you know, going to come in on Monday morning and go, Hey, it's Monday morning, not, oh, it's Monday morning.

Roberta

I think as well, a word that we haven't used yet is optimism or hope. And in in my research, many years ago, now, optimism was the single best predictor of both career success and job satisfaction. And we I'm also co author of a book that uses a hope action theory, a hope centered approach to career development. And so I think that it's really important to as HR folks and as leaders in the organization, to be working with our employees to, to instill hope to instill optimism to give them that sense, and it fits with your notion of a growth mindset, that sense of possibility, and, and that the future is holding something meaningful and motivating for each of them.

Ahmed

I love that I've been watching the questions in the comments very closely here. I think there hasn't been too many that have come in just a lot of agreement, comments, and people are loving what you're saying. So I'm going to leave it at that. Michelle, at this point, just given the schedules and where we're at, why don't we move to closing? And I'll keep looking to see if any questions do trickle in. But how about you tell us about the next Mindful Monday? I think this is going to be another exciting one for us coming up?

Michelle

Yes, absolutely. There are many things that business leaders, hiring managers and HR professionals have in common, but one thing for certain is recruitment. And recruitment is really, really hard, especially these days. And so that's our that's our topic for March is Why is recruitment so hard? We're talking with not one but two guests, and the next Mindful Monday, and that is Scott Stoppler and Sandy Johnson. And they both been in the recruitment space for 30-plus years. And they're going to share some of their behind the scenes insights with us. And I really look forward to that. I'm looking to see when our next Mindful Monday is just give me a second here. It's March 21. That's our next Mindful Monday.

Ahmed

Excellent. Well, that is super exciting. I'm looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a great session. And what more exciting news than having it all about recruitment, having double speakers, it's going to be a big month. I love it. I think that's it, there was no no questions that came in. So I think we can close here. I just want to say thank you to everyone who took the time to join us live this morning on Valentine's Day to take that little bit of time out of their day to do that. You know, Michelle, of course, thank you for putting these together. And Roberta, I mean, just so much gratitude and appreciation for your time, not just all the prep time, not all the time today, but including the prep time it takes to put into the so we do thank you for that and taking that extra bit of time for us. So thank you. Thank you for being with us.

Roberta

Take care. It was a privilege and a pleasure and I look forward to following along with your future Mindful Mondays.

Michelle

Thank you so much for Roberta bye, everyone.

Ahmed

Bye, everyone. Thank you