Mindful Monday’s

Any change can be difficult, at times disruptive, and change can present opportunities for personal growth. When we connect to our needs both in mind and body we are better prepared to manage anticipation around what is to come.

Speakers:

• Michelle Precourt, Mindful HR Services Inc.

• Sandra McDowell, e-Leadership Academy

• Ahmed Rammay, Marketing by Rammay

Transcript

Michelle Precourt 

Good morning. Welcome. My name is Michelle Precourt Welcome to our first Mindful Monday of 2022. Nice to see you again Ahmed.

 Ahmed Rammay

Hello, good morning.

 Michelle Precourt 

And welcome, Sandra.

Sandra McDowell

Good morning.

 Michelle Precourt 

Before we dive into this conversation, which I'm really, really looking forward to, I wanted to share briefly just just about this concept of Mindful Mondays. So for those of you who have been with us here before, once a month on a Monday, of course, and it's all about having thoughtful conversations with subject matter experts around human resources related issues. So this discussion is around change and using cognitive science to help leaders navigate change. Previously, we've talked to career development specialists about career related stress, that's a big one these days, change management,  leadership discussions, workplace wellness strategies. So there's a lot more coming in 2022. And on that note, I want to say thank you, Ahmed, for agreeing to be our host for the entire year of 2022. Thank you, Ahmed.

 Ahmed Rammay

My pleasure, my pleasure. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

 Michelle Precourt 

So I think we're ready to start this discussion.

 Ahmed Rammay

Let's do it. So with that, thank you so much, Michelle, thank you to our audience who's taking the time out this morning to join us and be here with us. Really quickly. Before we jump in, I just want to give a quick intro to Sandra here. So we have Sandra McDowell. She's CEO and founder of e-Leadership Academy, with nearly two decades of executive experience and advanced certifications in leadership, coaching and neuro-leadership. Sandra is a trusted authority on the application of neuroscience for leadership and the author of Your Mother Was Right; 15 Unexpected Lessons About Leadership And The Brain. I love it. Love that title. So what is rewiring the brain for change? I mean, that's what we're here to talk about today. Any change can be difficult at times disruptive and change can present opportunities for personal growth. When we connect to our needs, both in mind and body, we're better prepared to manage and manage anticipation around what is to come. So just for our audience here, before we jump in, we do have our questions for Sandra. I just wanted to let everyone know, of course, we have the chat function running today. So just some housekeeping items. If you have questions or comments, please feel free to throw them in the chat, I will be moderating them. And if something comes in, I will bring it up with the speakers here. Or if you just want to share comments, please feel free to do so. But use that chat function to do that. So let's kick off our first question. Sandra, this one is for you. It's this is a big deal. This is big, broad subject. But you could could you share with our viewers how insights from cognitive science can apply to leadership and how these insights can help us achieve sustainable change?

 Sandra McDowell

 Yes, thank you for First of all, thank you for having me. And for kicking off the year being on a mindful note talking about change. It's an honour to be here. So thanks so much, Michelle, and Ahmed. So when it comes to the brain and leadership, first off, I want to say I'm definitely not a neuroscience expert. But what I have done through my work is leverage insights from cognitive science to apply to organizational leadership and organizational behavior to understand what's happening in the brain. Because we can all see that it's our brains are under a lot of stress and pressure. That's not getting easier. So if we look to cognitive science, we can leverage insights to help us with concepts such as change and well being and connection, inclusion and other areas that we can really garner insights to help us lead more effectively. For me, it was a journey to get to really finding my way to leveraging those insights. Having been leadership practitioner for over 20 years, serving in all positions from middle management through to acting CEO and COO I definitely experienced a lot of failed change initiatives, a lot of good ones that we were able to achieve, but lots of times when personal aspirations for change failed and organizational initiatives. And this backed up of course by research from McKinsey, around 70% of change initiatives fail. And so that led me from studying leadership through to my certification and executive coaching and then I'm looking to study neuroscience leadership at the Neuro Leadership Institute. And that's when really some light bulbs went off for me around what's going on in the brain and taking the concepts learned, and being able to understand human behaviour, what's working what's not, and then apply it to effective leadership. So that's kind of how we funnel down to how do we take insights from neuroscience to apply it to leadership. So change is one area. But there's also the concept of connection and belonging that we can take insights from, as well as well being and overall brain health, focus and distraction. Lots of areas that we can apply insights, but today, we're talking about change.

 Ahmed Rammay

I love it. I love how you said that there's so many different facets to it's not just change, and there's this whole body connection part of it. And we're talking about, you know, the health side of it, you know, lots to add there. I'm really great. We're digging into this topic, I think it's great for the start of the new year. Michelle, before we jump, would you like to add something to that or your own thoughts around how the cognitive connection happens for change and what might be happening with some of the people you're talking to?

 Michelle Precourt 

Yeah, just just really quickly, there's lots of things that are happening in the brain that frankly, we don't, we don't know, we don't feel well, we can feel it, we can sense it. But we don't see these little, you know, it's not like this little ticker is going off in our brain going, “oh, that was a dopamine fix that I just got, oh, oxytocin is kicked in here”. We don't see these things. But we can certainly see the impact of what's happening when you talked about the mind body. This is a part that's near and dear to me, as someone who has studied meditation, mindfulness, and is a yoga practitioner, we talk a lot, a lot about these types of things. And what I like about that is it's becoming more mainstream in leadership, where before it was, you know, I'll say decades ago, it was, we're here to get a job done, you got to get this done, doesn't matter how you're feeling. I don't care about how you're feeling. But there is a correlation to that and I think that we need to step back, because at the end of the day, we are human beings. And I think it was, it may have even been in that program that we're you and I met Sandra through Royal Roads University, where we talked about this idea of, instead of a to do list, it's a to be list. So we have all these things that we want to do. But how do we want to be, what kind of leader do we want to be? And what can you do to cultivate that type of those types of leadership skills? So I think this is where someone like yourself, Sandra could be really beneficial to leadership, development of leadership training.

 Ahmed Rammay

Anything to add there, Sandra, before we move to the next question.

 Sandra McDowell

 I love the work that Michelle does around really looking at that mind body connection, and, you know, overall well being which is so important in connection to HR, and how do we support people to be well, in our workplaces. It's definitely a big topic right now. And so looking to the brain to try to understand it is so important. As Michelle mentioned, there's so much we don't know, and as those that aren't experts, but really just leveraging insights from the, you know, the cognitive scientists, the neuroscientists that are garnering this insight, how can we take that and apply it to the workplaces? Because the information is there, we just need to be able to look to the research to say what's really what can we take, that we can apply to humans, that humans, you know, there's a lot that's stacked against us right now. Just connection, human connection is so important for our well being. And that's been challenged for two years coming up in terms of you know, go to your own corners, and that disconnection, so we were struggling, also the burnout, and overwhelmed that we're feeling from the pressures, the pace of change, the threat response that we've all been under, for almost close to two years is really taxing on the brain. And so when we start to think about sort of maybe pre-pandemic, and or, you know, organizations haven't changed initiatives, individuals wanting to achieve change, if you've got all of those things layered in between the good intentions, and the actual manifestation of that change, there's a lot that's going on that we need to unpack.

 Ahmed Rammay

Absolutely there. And I love that you're recognizing, you know, there is so much to unpack, but at the same time, you know, the fact that we're having this conversation now, you know, to Michelle's point earlier about how maybe decades ago it was, we have a job, we need to get it done and there wasn't this focus on, you know, feelings are how do we connect the mind to the body and the work we're actually doing and the impacts that it has. We're looking at that now. And it's so impactful and so important in today's workforce that we do recognize this and there is a total cognition piece that comes into that it's not, you know, we're, before we would sort of separate, or at least, I think we would separate the science behind it from the application. But now we're able to apply some more of the science and look at the true foundations of what's happening. And I think now is a really great inflection point, be accelerated because of the pandemic or not, but I think it's at this point now, and jobs, life careers wherever we are connecting those two pieces, because now we can better understand not just ourselves, but the people we're working with, and those that were either leading or being led by and so I think that's really impactful that way. I think now, it's probably a good time to jump to our next question, which was, you know, and I'd love to hear from both of you. But I think Sandra, I'll start with you. How do you leverage your knowledge to support clients in a change process? So we've kind of talked a little bit about, you know, we know we want to apply it, but maybe what does that look like in your day to day are with the clients are working with.

 Sandra McDowell

 In the work that we do to support organizations just like in terms of leadership development, there is a big piece around understanding the brain, you know, we we all get paid to think, gone are the days when we were in the industrial area where we were paid to do tasks, we are paid to think I really don't know anybody that's not paid to think, and thinking is challenged. So in the work that we do to help leaders understand what's going on from a human connection, inclusion perspective, is so important. But some of the very specific areas that we can focus and do work in terms of this topic around, rewiring the brain comes into the area of focus. We live in a very distracted world, there's distractions coming at us all the time, notifications, things, dings, clicks, we are distracted internal distractions, external distractions, makes it very difficult to pay attention. This is a huge piece of the puzzle in terms of creating sustainable change, and how we rewire the brain to achieve change. There's 100 billion neurons in our brains. And these neurons, they need to connect with each other, the synapses need to connect to be able to form connections. And when the synapses connect, they fire together, and they wire together to form new neural connections in our brain, neural pathways around our habits, the only way we can make that happen is by paying attention. And by focusing and through repetition of of our thoughts of our habits, we can carve out these new neural pathways and reshape the brain. But if you can connect that back to what I was just saying around a distracted world, how is it? How could we possibly reshape our thoughts or thinking or habits or chiefs change? If we just can't think, we can't think because we can't focus? And we can't think because we're under pressure. So in terms of understanding the brain, we can start to look at focus as a key area. So how do we set up our workplaces create cultures where we can manage distractions and understand the downward spiral that happens from constant distraction. When I studied with the Neuro Leadership Institute, I was surprised the very first module that we looked at was the concept of attention of cycle, you know, how does this pertain to this topic of leadership, but we cannot learn and remember what we don't pay attention to, we can't. And so even though we take pictures, we categorize things. That's not the way our brains work, we need to create these connections and human connections help us to amplify that going from a place of incompetence to sort of a learned habit, is a journey. And I think one of the key elements of that is repetition. So it's called attention density in the brain, you know, what we focus on grows, for better or for worse. So if we can shape the brain that in itself is not innately positive. So if we, this time in the pandemic, worry, fear, angst, can reshape the brain, not necessarily in a positive way. So tension density shapes the brain when it comes. So think about, you know, we are what we think about most of the time. So how do we attune our focus to the things that we want to achieve either as an organization as an individual, and then I'll just throw this out as the last bit to where we help organizations as a certified executive coach, and having been for 10 years, I have seen so many individuals groups, who with great intentions, but the reality is, is that most cases, we fall short of achieving those. So the coach approach is so powerful in terms of helping people think about, you know, why this is important to them, what the obstacles or barriers might be, how they might overcome those and how they can make a plan to navigate forward and gets them to do the thinking them to create the neural synapse connections them to create their attention dense and a coach approach to leadership, whether it be certified coach, just a friend or mentor asking questions, whatever it is, can help people do that thinking. So I guess the short answer real short answer to your question is. That's the two areas that I would focus on around reshaping the brain is mitigating distractions, managing attention, and then applying the coach approach to help people think and being really intentional about what whatever change needs to happen.

 Ahmed Rammay

I think that's so hugely important, you know, especially in today's world, when you're talking about the distractions and the things and things that we get, you know, thinking about even just focused work time when you have emails popping up, or text messages, or what have we been able to not eliminate those distractions, because I think that would be impossible, but being able to help mitigate them and train your brain around how do we compartmentalize some of that stuff. So I think there's some really good nuggets in there. Thank you for that. Some things that I will take away from myself, for sure, as I want to research this further, because I get distracted very easily. I've always been that way. But yeah, so Michelle, how about yourself? What do you think about this? How does this apply in your work? And maybe with the clients that you're seeing or just sort of some of your approaches to working with coaching around this?

 Michelle Precourt 

Yeah, I definitely have some a few things to say. But I also want to open up to our viewers, if if you've got any insights that you want to share what's worked for you? Please share that in the chat. We, you know, I always come into these conversations, I don't have all of the answers. I have some ideas. And so this is one that I've really attached to there's an American psychologist by the name of Dr. Rick Hanson. And he shared this quote, and it is for me, it is so, so true. That so he says this, that the brain is like Velcro, for negative thoughts, and like Teflon for the positive ones. So we will ruminate on something that has happened. And continue to ruminate on that. And so to your point, Sandra, we cultivate what we focus on, which could be this negative thing. So it could be something as simple as this, you have a difficult conversation with an employee at work. A few minutes later, you're talking to your manager, you tell them how difficult that conversation was. You go at you take a break for lunch, you talk to your spouse about this difficult conversation, you take the garbage out, you see your neighbor, you talk to you tell your neighbor about this difficult conversation. And perpetually, you're building up this story in your head, not to say it wasn't difficult, not trying to minimize the feelings around that. But the more often that we talk about these negative things, these difficult conversations, these challenging times, the more that we attach to this, and part of this, frankly, isn't our fault. I say this because it has to do with the brain and the evolution of the brain. And going way back to prehistoric times. And the evolution of humankind, that our predecessors were on this always on guard, you know, this fight or flight mode. And while we have created a lot of systems in place to help support, so we don't have to be as on guard, there is still this inherent piece of our brain that says you better watch out, this might be dangerous, this might be difficult, this might be hard. And so what we need to do you also use these words Sandra’s training the brain to focus on the good, to focus on the positive. And I know that some of these tactics may come across as a bit cheesy, but they work. Things like gratitude journals, things like the power of positivity. When you recognize that you're going down a bit of a rabbit hole of negativity, what can you do to train the brain? And so you could, you know, maybe count on your colleagues at work to say, can we support each other when we're going through this, change is hard. So this is where you could use it change is hard. Can you remind me if I'm going down a rabbit hole of negativity, and what did we accomplish today? Maybe you could use that as a leadership tactic. And count on your colleagues to say, hey, Michelle, you know what, we've talked about this before. Let's focus on the positive right. So I'll pause there, but those are some of my initial thoughts around change. And like I said, some of it's not our fault, but we do have the ability to rewire the brain.

 Ahmed Rammay

Thank you for that. Michelle, that was amazing. It's some great tips that definitely came out of that, at least for me for sure. We had a question that came in. And I know Sandra, you're kind of short on time, so I want to squeeze it in before we lose it here. But Deidre Kelly asked, making time to think can be overwhelming for many because of prioritization challenges and low structure formalization in areas such as job responsibilities, what would you recommend to organizations who wanted to formalize time to think?

 Sandra McDowell

 Yeah, great question. I think it's, well, there's organizational and then there's personal so I think personal awareness, I always start with, you know, the education and the knowledge around distraction and how distraction gets in the way of our well being and performance. A distracted mind, as Michelle was saying, it can be an unhealthy mind when we're especially when we're ruminating or catastrophizing, daydreaming can then be nice sometimes, but it can get in the way of performance. So I think some knowledge around distraction and how it impacts well being is a good place to start. And so this can be sharing TED Talks, this can be having conversations, you know, being playful about the reality of distractions, and how many distractions and be email notifications and unnecessary emails that are happening in terms of, you know, all see all all replies. So some awareness around the impact of distractions would be a place to start. And then I think it's carving out time. This is I think, I'm glad you mentioned it, it's that self discipline, that becomes the hardest piece because we can put we can suggest to people a time block or we can suggest to people, you know that we can bring people together to think together and attune attention by having a topic and using an appreciative inquiry approach to, to think out loud. But the self management is really an important piece of it. So I would say an answer is kind of a hybrid of knowledge and awareness about how distractions are not helping us from our well being and performance perspective. And when it comes to culture, we shape culture by what we talk about what we reward, what we recognize, and what we tolerate. So if we continue to see people, you know, waste wasting time or you know, replying all and unnecessary time waste of distractions, then we're tolerating that. That's where it really lean into leadership. That's the role of leaders, especially if they've been given granted authority, authority to be able to manage all that. But great question. But I wanted to just pick up on a couple of things Michelle said, because I think they're really important pieces around the negativity bias that we have, that it's natural. And so we especially right now, in the time that the pandemic, our brains are hardwired to seek reward things we want and avoid threat. But from a survival perspective, as Michelle said, we're more attuned to avoid threat. And right now more than ever, we are attuned to the threats. And so I love there's a couple of bodies of work we could look to. We can look to a Marilee Adams work around the learner judger mindset. And one of my favorite quotes from her book, you know, Change Your Questions, Change Your Life, is around the concept accept your judger, accept that we're going to have a negativity bias and practice learner. So just as Michelle was saying, how can you reframe to ask the questions to think differently about that. And that really comes to the silver lining piece around what's the opportunity here, which also connects to the work of Carol Dweck and the fixed growth mindset. So I love the work around we all have that fixed mindset. But we need to practice that growth mindset in that I can't yet or what's the opportunity here, and it is a muscle we need to flex and train in our brain, otherwise, we will gravitate to the negative.

 Michelle Precourt 

Thank you for that. Sandra, I'm taking a look at the time want to be respectful of yours. I think there might be a couple of additional comments that we need to address. So if if you need to go.

 Sandra McDowell

 No, thank you. I can help I can stay on if we've got a few questions.

 Michelle Precourt 

Perfect. Okay.

 Ahmed Rammay

Awesome. I'm just gonna take a quick review of the questions in the comment section. If, while I'm doing that, Michelle, maybe this is a great opportunity for you to speak with Sandra and hear more about how we can apply insights from neuroscience to leadership and how did you become interested in this area of leadership? Maybe this is a good time to kind of cover that for yourself.

 Michelle Precourt 

Absolutely. So it's a bit multifaceted as they talked about earlier. My personal meditation and mindfulness practice certainly has helped me to become a whole lot more self aware. And I think that that is really key. As a leader understanding your triggers, understanding what motivates, what motivates you, but also what motivates your team so that self awareness is really key. In addition, and so Sandra and I met, because I had taken one of her programs through Royal Roads University. And that one is called Leading the Brain for Change or leading the brain with change. And I got so, so much materials so much learning out of that. And it's why Sandra wanted you to be part of our, our Mindful Monday as a guest. So thank you again. And then there's an additional resource out there, there's podcasts through the Neuro Leadership Institute, which they share. Now, these are neuroscience scientists that are speaking. So some of it can be, you know, really, in the weeds in the scientific weeds. But I'll always pick up something new. And something that is relevant to the work that I'm doing around mindfulness in the workplace, workplace wellness, these sorts of things, because they all intertwined. The question about earlier that was asked about how you make time how you make time to to process and part of it. Yes, I want to 100% agree with you, Sandra, that it's around scheduling time and saying I am unavailable. But a big part of this is also positive leader role modeling, if your executives are sending emails on the weekends, if your executives are making phone calls over the weekend, and sometimes the environment is just like that, in 24 hour operations. Leaders need to be available, they need to be available for their staff. But is it something that can wait, I ask this question of myself all of the time? And even if the answer is no, it doesn't mean that my problems go away. But I'll ask myself this. Michelle, at this very moment, do you have a problem? Because I can get caught up in that negativity bias. And so I continue to train my brain, but at this very moment, do I have a problem? Is it something that I need to action right now? Or can it wait? That's a question that I would ask our viewers to, to reflect on as they continue through their Monday, which can be a hard day, getting back into the work group. Do I have a problem right now? Or can it wait? I'll pause there, Ahmed.

 Ahmed Rammay

Thank you for that. No, I love that insight that you added there. We did have a couple of other questions come in. And again, I just wanted to be mindful of time. So I'm gonna read out one of the questions we have here. And I think it's a really good one. So I’ll read it out and says what are some of the key habits you would recommend to a leader to cultivate focus behaviour? And I think that's key, because we're talking about, you know, how do we eliminate distractions? How do we give time to think and some of that? So I think this really lends into that. But I like this idea about focus behaviour. So I'm not sure who wants to take that one on Sandra, or Michelle.

 Sandra McDowell

 Michelle, you want me to jump in?

 Michelle Precourt 

Sure, go ahead, Sandra.

 Sandra McDowell

 I love what Michelle said about leading by example. So as a leader, that would be the first place to start, because we need to be able to set the example. So in terms of cultivating focus behaviour, that would be some of the things Michelle mentioned around, you know, leading by example. But also, I think, encouraging that, recognizing it, so saying, you know, I see that such and such has blocked off some time and can really, we, you know, look at the outcomes of that. So what we reward in terms of talk about is important, and also, like encouraging it, also allowing people to step away, not expecting two people to respond instantaneously, instantaneously to messages, allowing that, that so the surface schedule time to, to adjust to reality of being able to think there's some research that says, For every distraction that we have, we, it takes five to 20 minutes to reengage with the task at hand, and you can only imagine the downward spiral that happens. So understanding the cost of distractions. So in terms of some of those focus behaviours was you know, managing email volumes, in terms of meetings, it is, you know, it can be really distracting with people with phones or notifications, or people are typing and texting, so setting best practices for virtual meetings that eliminate distractions. I am a big advocate of asking people to turn on their camera, because we are our own worst enemy. And I, myself included is that I think that I can do two things at once. So I think that I can listen and I can type or I can check my phone. And we can't, when it comes to the brain multitasking is a misnomer mean that they we can't actually do two things at once. We think we can but we can't. So what happens is our brain actually attention switches very, very quickly. And so there's a cost to that. And as the complexity increases, we start If you've ever been texting, and all of a sudden what you're texting comes out what you're saying or vice versa. That's an example of cognitive overload. So with meetings, and helping people tune out distractions, if you are in virtual meetings, encouraging cameras on I know, it's hard to always be on. But it does help people manage distractions, and expecting people to be engaged.

 Ahmed Rammay

I love that you have some good tips there for that focus behavior. And you know, having a camera on your right, it absolutely does focus or sorry, force people to be engaged, but that we assume they're not. But it's helpful, because then you can see the other person's face, you can see their facial reactions, you can see how they're reacting to the content you're you're displaying and all that. So that I love that. I think it's a great idea. I think, you know, as we're winding down, we have time for one more question here. And then we'll probably we'll bring it to a wrap to a close here. The question came in, excuse me. The question came in, and it says, if a person is going through a really tough situation, and the future is clear, that it's definitely against their hope, and there is no control on what is going to happen. How to come out of that and concentrate on something we have to do, but there is your hope associated with it. So Spreepriya Poodikalam asked this question, and we'd love to answer this is our last one, before we head off for the day.

 Michelle Precourt 

I'll just say that, to close, this is a really big question. And leaders aren't can't be everything to everyone. And sometimes change organizational change as well has a deep impact on us as an individual. So one of the elements of my work is outplacement services, those folks in career transition. So I'm bringing this up only because it's this level of hope, right. So if you lose your job because of an organizational change, this is not your fault. But you have to deal with the outcome. And so sometimes you need to solicit third party support, whatever the change may be, if you are feeling really hopeless, it is really, really important that you solicit additional supports, your leader can't do, they can't be everything to you. They have an organization to run, they have lots of people to talk to. So this is again, a really big question that requires a whole lot more time than we have here. But that is my, that's a big part of even the work that I do I expect you as well Sandra is that sometimes it's beyond our scope of practice, and beyond our qualifications and skills, and that third party, it could be a therapist, for example, could be something bigger than that, a physician of some sort, that if you're in this type of hopeless situation, that you get the help that you need. So again, big, big question, but wanted to make sure that we address this and say, if you need some help, please ask for help.

 Ahmed Rammay

Absolutely, I love that. And especially because we're talking about mindfulness, the cognitive connection, there's so much that's packed into that it's hard, you know, to bring up these more tougher, broader questions, but they still need to be addressed, because we are all feeling these things that they're very real. And we need to validate them. I know we're trying to be mindful of time. But Sandra, I don't want to cut you off. If you have anything to add to that, please, please feel free. Otherwise, we'll begin to close.

 Sandra McDowell

 I think what Michelle said around seeking supports for that hopefulness and the reframe. And so I think whatever type of support, but I do, I will just add around the topic of rewiring the brain for change, you know, to really summarize any insights that we can leverage from cognitive science and organizational behavior. My thoughts would be to focus on focus and attuning attention, but to really use the concept of coaching and the coach approach, which is helping people think out loud, about, you know, tuning attention, what's the topic? What's the way forward? What's the opportunity? How can I think differently about this? And then what's the plan? Coaching is a gift that we give people, when we give them that time to think out loud. So focus, and the coach approach to help rewire the brain.

 Ahmed Rammay

Love it. Well, thank you both so much for your time today. Thank you so much for being here with us, Sandra. Michelle as always thank you for putting this on for us every Monday or not every Monday sorry, everyone on the third Monday. Today was a bit of an off week but we'll be back again in February and Michelle, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about the next session that's to come.

 Michelle Precourt 

Absolutely. Yeah, we try as much as possible to host these on the third Monday of each month. But we have go with the flow sometimes. And, in fact, next month is going to be the second Monday, February 14. This is we're shifting gears a little bit and talking about growth mindset and career development. And we're going to be speaking with someone who I really admire for their work as well. Roberta Borden of Life Strategies. She's been in the career development space for over 30 years, and has so much to share. She's speaks internationally works with all sorts of international organizations and also is highly embedded in the Canadian career development space as well. So that's February 14, growth mindset and career development. I want to say thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. Thank you, Sandra, for your time and for your focus your attention today, and Ahmed Rammay and once again, thank you for hosting and moderating.

 Ahmed Rammay

Thanks.

 Michelle Precourt 

We'll see you. We'll see you next month. And until then, be well everyone.

 Sandra McDowell 

Thanks for having me.